Ms. Snarky's Awesometastic Comics Blog











{September 24, 2011}   A Response from a Female Comic Book Fan

Usually, I use this blog for humor and try to shy away from the serious issues. I read comics because I love comics. Period. And while I may discuss all of the political ins and outs behind them on my own time, I don’t usually like to state my thoughts publicly, beyond a quick little blip on twitter. There’s way too much negativity on the Internet for me to usually want to expose myself to any of it.

However, there’s been a debate that’s recently come to the forefront of the Internet comics discussion, and it’s one that’s very near and dear to my heart: The portrayal of women in comics. Comics Alliance editor Laura Hudson recently posted a heartfelt and genuine post about how a couple of the comics in the DC “New 52” re-launch made her feel as a person who both reads comics and has two X chromosomes. It touched a lot of nerves on both sides of the issue, and stirred up a lot of debate online. A lot of the response has been positive and supportive, from both women who understand exactly where she’s coming from and men who can sympathize with her point. But since this is, in fact, the Internet, there’s been a lot of boneheaded things said in response to it as well. Some of which, as someone who also has two X chromosomes, make me less than happy.

I think some of those responses have genuinely meant well, but they’ve missed the mark. And as someone who has to deal with this issue every day, I’d like to take a moment to stop keeping my mouth shut and instead respond to some of the things I’ve read over the past couple of days that have given me pause.

Before I get into that, however, I’d like to give a brief history of my life as a comic book fangirl, so you’ll know exactly where I’m coming from when I say all this. I’d like to just be able to say “fan,” but I really can’t here, because the fact that I’m a girl has in many ways shaped the sort of fan I am – for better or for worse. In my experience, it’s been impossible to simply be a fan without my gender somehow coming to play. (I want to note here that this is my experience. I’m not trying to speak for all women, though I’m sure there’s some women out there who can relate.) I started out at a very young age as a cartoon fan. I loved anything animated, and probably would’ve watched cartoons all day, every day if my mother had let me. And when I say a “very young age,” I mean just that. Two, three years old, and cartoons were my life. I was also, very much a girl. I knew I was a girl, and I liked being a girl. So when I watched cartoons, I looked for other girls in them I could relate to. As a tiny future-comics fan growing up in the 80’s, Rainbow Brite and She-Ra were my idols. I dressed up like them, I played with their toys, I pouted when my mother told me I had to turn off the TV and go to bed. I didn’t go looking for fandom, and I didn’t wake up one day and decide to be a part of it. And I certainly didn’t do it because I wanted more boys to find me sexy. I have always, always been a girl who loves cartoons.

But do you know what else I loved? He-Man and Transformers. Man, did I love me some Transformers. I didn’t matter that the main characters weren’t pretty blonde girls on Transformers. They were simply awesome, and I could get just as into them as anything else. Giant robots that turn into cars! What could be better than that? I didn’t even realize they were supposed to be “for boys” until one day I went to McDonald’s because they had some snazzy new Transformers Happy Meal toys. However, when I got the Happy Meal I’d anxiously waited for, there was no Transformer toy. There was a Barbie. A plastic hunk of immobile Barbie to be precise. And while I liked Barbie just fine, it wasn’t what I wanted. I had gotten it because the woman behind the counter had seen a little girl and had automatically given me the toy “for girls.” Not even five years old, and I was already being told what group I was supposed to be with. It was the first time I was told, “Okay, well, you may like this thing, but it isn’t really for you.”

From that point on, my mother always had to tell the cashier the Happy Meal was “for a boy.” But I wasn’t a boy. And I didn’t want to be a boy. I didn’t understand why what was between my legs had any bearing on whether I wanted Transformers and Hot Wheels or if I wanted Barbie and Strawberry Shortcake. I still don’t. I liked the things I liked just as earnestly and just as much as all the boys I knew. Why was it theirs and not mine, too?

It wasn’t until elementary school, when I was around eight years old, that I discovered comics. It was, in fact, through my love of cartoons. It was the early 90’s, and X-Men: The Animated Series ran on FOX. And I loved it. Loved it. It was quite easily the highlight of my week. And as I had with the cartoons I liked in the past, I gravitated to and related to the female characters. Now instead of She-Ra, it was Rogue. Not only was she a strong, competent woman, but she was from the South – just like me! I wore a little brown jacket because it looked like hers and was furious my mother wouldn’t let me bleach the front of my hair white. And when I went to the grocery store and saw that there were stories about Rogue and all the other X-Men I could buy and read at home, my first comics were purchased.

I read comics on and off from that point on until now, twenty years later. For twenty years – roughly two thirds of my life – I have been a loyal fan of comics. But time and time again, I have been told that these comics, these things that I love, have spent more money on that I even want to think about, and devote part of my week to each and every week, are not really for me. Not completely anyway. Anytime I go into a new local comic book shop, I enter with trepidation, wondering how I’ll be received. Will someone ask me if I’m buying something for my boyfriend/brother/husband/son? Will someone look at me with disdain and then use his body to block me from the comic I want to read because hey, girls don’t belong in here? Will someone ask me if I’m only in there because I think an actor in a comic book movie is hot? Will someone turn to me and tell me with a snide look that they don’t sell “any girly manga” in there, so I should just leave? It could happen. All of these things have happened. To me.

I could be wrong, but I doubt there’s a lot of male fans who get asked if they’re buying X-Men solely because of Anna Paquin’s butt. Or if they’re in there because their girlfriend asked them to pick up the new issue of Punisher. They’re in the realm of the Transformers Happy Meals, and I’m supposed to stay outside and be happy with my hunk of pink Barbie plastic. All because one part of who I am that makes me different from them.

So when I look at an issue of Catwoman (who, by the way, I also loved as a child, to the point that it was the only DC comic I ever bought for years and it was my Halloween costume for two years in a row) where Catwoman doesn’t have even have a face for several panels, I feel like I’m being told I shouldn’t be having the Happy Meal I want all over again. Sure, I can read the comic if I really want to, but it’s not really for me. It’s for a single-gender audience. It doesn’t matter how much I love comics, how much I’m willing to spend to keep them in business, or what they mean to me as a fan for the last twenty years. Because I was born a girl and not a boy, I will never be part of the real, intended audience. And that sucks.

I’ve never wanted comics to be re-written so they’re all about tampons and kittens in people clothes, or whatever a certain sector of the male audience thinks female readers want in comics. I love superhero comics. I love them for what they are and what they can be. I can guarantee you I get just as excited when Captain America throws his shield or Thor yells “I say thee nay” as any man ever has. I don’t even want women in comics to suddenly all have tiny breasts and wear baggy costumes. Because hey, the men have crazy muscles and tight costumes, too. Cheesecake and beefcake are both part of the aesthetic. I just don’t want to be actively offended by what I’m reading. I don’t want to be told while I’m trying to read and enjoy something I spent my money on that it isn’t really for me. I don’t have to be courted; I’m already buying comics. I would, however, like not to be driven away.

As for the Catwoman and Red Hood and the Outlaws comics, I’m upset for very specific reasons, not just because I didn’t get my feminist ranting quota in this week. I’m not upset just because Starfire is in a bikini or because Catwoman and Batman had on-panel sex. I’m upset because those comics were not about women being sexually empowered or liberated in any way. They were about the male readers getting a chance to ogle each one of Catwoman’s body parts and getting to fantasize about having no-strings-attached sex with Starfire. And in the meantime, all the women who love and read comic books are slapped in the face. And just like being told a Transformers Happy Meal isn’t for me or that I shouldn’t be in a comic book store if it doesn’t sell “girly manga,” I’m told that in order to be a comics reader, I have to be complicit in my objectification. And you know what? I’m not okay with that. And as a person who likes to be treated like one, I have the right to be upset about that.

However, a lot of people don’t seem to think I do have that right. I’ve read several comments over the last couple of days that I can mostly lump into a few basic questions, which I’d like to take the chance here on my own blog to respond to:

  • Shut up, you stupid feminazis! I like sexy comics. And boobs!

These people don’t really even warrant a response, other than seriously, grow up or fuck off.

  • If you don’t like what’s happening in comics, you don’t have to read them.

No, I don’t have to read them. And I’m not going to read Catwoman  or Red Hood and the Outlaws past that first issue. But is this really the ideal solution? Nope.

I’m exactly the sort of reader DC should’ve been courting with their re-launch. I love comics, primarily superhero comics, but aside from a few here and there, I’ve never read DC. I do, however, spend money on comics every week – at times more than I spend on food, if I’m being completely honest. Ideally, I’m a good prospective source of future revenue for DC. They wouldn’t have had to sell me on the idea of buying comics, just on the idea of buying their comics. Had the re-launch been compelling and something I felt I could jump into and become a reader of even though I didn’t know the ins and outs of DC history the way I do Marvel, then maybe, my weekly comics dollar wouldn’t have been going all to Marvel. However, since DC seems to have instead gone out of their way to actively offend female readers and send me the message that they’re totally okay with alienating me if it means they can sell their sexy new books, then they’ve lost me. It doesn’t matter at that point if there’s other books in the New 52 that wouldn’t offend me. I’m not going to spend my money to find out. Companies have one real shot to sell their products to the consumer, and with things like this, they’ve blown that.

Furthermore, if I love superhero comics, but feel like I’m being alienated as a reader because of who I am, then why should I just shut up and not read them? If I’m not okay with the status quo, then I don’t get comics? Those are my choices? Yeah, no. I’m not going to shut up and turn my back on on something I want to enjoy just so someone else can look at cartoon boobs.

And really, let’s be completely honest here. Comics are not in the best shape financially they have ever been. “If you don’t like it, don’t read it” is not the attitude anyone needs to take, especially the companies themselves. All it does is alienate consumers and hurt the industry further. This is a time when comics need to be embracing everyone who wants to read them, and that means women, too.

  • What are you so upset about? It’s just a sex scene! You must be a prude.

I’m not a prude. I don’t care if Catwoman wants to have sex with Batman. I don’t care if Catwoman wants to have a threesome with Batman and Alfred in the Batmobile while Nightwing watches. What I do care about is any female character becoming a sexual object instead of an actual character. The sex scene was really, only icing on the cake. We see every part of Catwoman’s body, dressed in tight leather and sexy underwear, before we ever see her face. That isn’t about showing consensual sex between two adults. It’s about titillating the audience (read: the male readers) at the expense of the female character’s humanity. It’s very hard to explain to someone who’s never been a woman and never gone through the experience of being sized up like a faceless piece of meat, but it’s a sickening feeling. It’s certainly not something I find sexy or entertaining.

But there is much more going on in that comic than just a sex scene. It’s about using sex to sell a comic because hey, why would the men who buy comics (because, after all, comics are for men) want to buy a title with a female lead if she isn’t “sexy.” My problem with that comic was not simply that there was a sex scene. I was bothered from the very beginning, when it was clear right off the bat (no pun intended…) that it was about Catwoman’s T&A, and not about a developed character. That comic existed to sell an image of sex to men, and the female readers who hey, might actually enjoy a story about Catwoman, were left completely in the cold.

Furthermore, If I had picked that comic up as a little girl (as I did do as a child with Catwoman comics) I wouldn’t have seen a female character I could find strength in. I would’ve been told that my worth was in my body parts, not in who I am. I can tell you from experience little girls get that message enough. The fewer places they have to hear it from, the better.

  • You must have a problem with sexually liberated women.

Nope. I’m a grown woman. I have sex. I have no problem with sex. I have no time for “slut shaming,” and I certainly don’t care who other women sleep with. It’s my personal choice an adult woman who I sleep with, and it’s every other adult woman’s personal choice as well. Not my business, and not anyone else’s either.

But what a lot of the commenters on Red Hood and the Outlaws seem to be forgetting is that Starfire is not a real person who made the choice to have lots of anonymous sex on her own. She is not a “sexually liberated woman.” She’s a character, who was written by a person – specifically, a man. Starfire’s preening in a bikini and talking about how she wants to have sex with people whose names she won’t even remember is not about celebrating the sexually-liberated woman of the Twenty-First Century, throwing off the shackles of male oppression. It’s about giving men the chance to fantasize about having a hot chick with big boobs want to do them without any consequences. Don’t believe me? Look at the responses to Starfire’s “liberated sexuality” by the male characters in the comic. They ogle her and they discuss their own sexual conquests of her. It’s not about Starfire and her adult choices regarding sex. It’s about male fantasy.

So no, I don’t have any problem with sexually liberated women in real life. What I do have a problem with is wanting to read a comic book and being given softcore porn that objectifies the female body and twists actual sexual liberation into some sort of bizarre amnesiac nymphomania where women have sex with whatever men cross their paths and then literally forget all about them. That’s not liberation. That’s not even just a little cheesecake. That’s offensive. Period.

  • It’s just a comic. Geez, why are you so upset over something that’s just entertainment?

This is a problem on two levels. For starters, why are we cheapening comics? If anyone says that comics aren’t art, or that they’re a throw-away medium, there’s a lot of ire on the Internet. Yet if someone then says that comics should be better than their most base form, we all need to shut up and accept it’s “just entertainment?” We can’t have it both ways. Either comics have the ability to be more than cheap thrills or they don’t. This is a turning point for comics, and they can either raise the bar and prove themselves worthy of surviving or they can sell out to the lowest common denominator and fade away into obscurity. Pandering to the lowest common denominator is not the right choice to make if comics want to survive as a medium.

Furthermore, offensive entertainment is a problem. I’m a woman. I don’t like feeling objectified. I don’t care if it’s “just entertainment.” Sexism is gross, demeaning, and upsetting. And no, I’m not going to shut my mouth and brush it off because hey, it’s just a comic book! Compliance is what allows things like this to continue. And if you really think telling a woman to just be quiet and get over it because she’s silly to get upset about something that makes her feel cheap is okay, then you’ve just proven my point.

  • Well, Catwoman’s a villain, so really, what does it matter if she’s all sexed up? She has no morals.

Catwoman’s moral code is not the point. I certainly didn’t want to be a thief when I picked up Catwoman comics as a child. I did, however, want to be strong like Catwoman. And yes, I wanted to be pretty like Catwoman – the same way a lot of little boys wanted to be strong and handsome like Batman or Captain America. So does it really matter that Catwoman is technically the “bad guy” when she’s objectified body part by body part? No. She’s not being objectified because she’s the bad guy. No one’s putting the Joker’s leather-covered butt in our faces. She’s objectified because she’s a woman.

Also, it’s not like the problem is just with Catwoman, or the “New 52.” This isn’t the first time this has happened in a comic and sadly, I’m positive it won’t be the last. It doesn’t matter who’s being objectified this time. It only matters that once again, it’s happening, and once again, female comic book readers are just supposed to accept it as the status quo and part of their experience as fans. It’s beyond gotten old.

And as for the whole implication in that it’s fine to portray a “slut” as long as she’s a villain is so backwards and offensive I’m not even going to go there. I’ll just tell you flat out: it’s wrongheaded and gross. For so many reasons it could be its own epic blog post.

  • I understand why women get upset, but this is always going to be in comics, and women have to understand that, too.

This is the one that quiet honestly, upsets me the most. It’s the response that seems supportive on the surface, but the underlying message is that all us hysterical women are just freaking out for no reason. What we just don’t understand is that men like what they like, and so we have to smile and put up with a little objectification now and then if we’re going to be comic book readers.

You know what? No. I am sick and tired of being told that what I want and need from my comics comes second to what men want to read. I have been a fan of comics for almost my entire life. I’ve paid my money for not only the books themselves, but the movies, the toys, the clothes. I’ve spent hours reading comics, discussing comics, loving comics. Why on Earth is my opinion and what I want to see in comics so much less valuable than someone else’s? Just because I was born with a different set of reproductive organs, I have to be passive in what I read, while a certain sector of men get to be catered to? That’s bullshit, plain and simple, and I am not okay with it. Yeah, this is the Twenty-First Century, and I am liberated with a mind and voice of my own, and I’m not just going to sit down, shut up, and be reduced to my parts because hey, comics are really for boys.

I realize there are niche comics. But these comics are superhero comics from one of the “Big Two.” These are the flagships, the ones who should be welcoming to everyone. And when things like this are allowed to exist without comment, that isn’t the case. You can have cheesecake, and sex scenes, and women in tight costumes without being disgusting about it. You can have characters with breasts the size of Emma Frost’s without limiting your characters – and, by extension, your female audience – to just those breasts. Batman isn’t all about his biceps, so why is Catwoman all about her boobs?

There’s plenty of room in comics for them to be “sexy” and smart. There’s plenty of room for female characters to be good-looking and strong. It doesn’t have to be an either/or situation. We don’t have to tell the women who walk into a comic book shop and want to give the comics industry their hard-earned money that hey, this isn’t really for them. No medium grows by limiting it. When the industry is in a position where it needs all the new readers it can get, pushing anyone away, especially with something as pointless as a bunch of panels with boobs on them, is not a mistake they can afford to make. And really, if the only way you think you can get someone to read your comic is by selling them softcore porn, it is seriously time to rethink the quality of what you’re putting out and why people might really not be buying it.

So yeah, there’s women who read comics. Women who love comics. Women who want nothing more than to hand their money right over to the comics industry so they can keep reading what they enjoy. And a lot of us love, in particular, superhero comics. This isn’t a Boys’ Club anymore, no matter how much some people want it to be, and it’s time we all accept that and treat every comic book fan with an equal amount of respect.

Because in the end, we’re all fans. We’re not fanboys and fangirls. We’re not black fans, white fans, gay fans, or straight fans. We’re FANS. And the comics we love should be for each and every one of us.



Lissa says:

Just dropping by with a message of support for everything you’ve said. I don’t read comics for some of the reasons you mentioned above. As a woman I don’t mind seeing superheroes dressed in tight costumes but if only the men were put into ridiculous ‘sexy’ poses like the women and wore costumes like them as well with all that skin showing and their crotch barely covered maybe people would start to realise just how objectified women in comics are.



Thanks! There are superhero comics out there that don’t treat women like objects, but the ones that do tend to be impossible for me to ignore.



Tastentier says:

Question: How many men have you met in the real world who wear belly-free tank tops and low rise jeans? How many men wear shoulder-free tops that show a lot of cleavage, mini-skirts that show off their legs, or string tangas at the beach? There might be a few (most of which are crossdressers), but in general, showing a lot of skin is a female domain. Men try to attract mates by posturing and bragging, women attract mates by exposing parts of their body.

No chauvinist forces women to dress that way, to wear makeup, high heels, pantyhose and so on. Human men and women have been performing this dance for tens of thousands of years, and attractive women are not going to stop exposing their shoulders, cleavage, legs and belly buttons anytime soon. Of course the media reflects this reality. That has little to do with objectification, although superhero comics are unquestioningly more geared towards a male audience simply because the majority of readers happen to be male. True, women in superhero comics wear even more revealing outfits than women in the real world, but the same goes for the male heroes in their skin-tight latex or spandex suits.



So women bring about their own objectification by the way they dress. Wow, that is a stunningly original argument. I have never, ever heard it before. Did you come up with that one all on your own?



Tastentier says:

That is not what I said. I actually pointed out that this has very little (in fact, nothing at all) to do with objectification. Women have the right to dress in any way they want, and showing a little cleavage or leg, or a bare midriff, doesn’t make a woman less of a human being.

My point is that a great many women *want* to show a little skin. More so than men, who have different methods of trying to attract the other gender. Just like males and females in any other mammalian species, human men and women behave a little differently, which doesn’t make either gender worth less than the other.

This is a reality. Comic book artists pay homage to this reality and maybe exaggerate it a little. So what? If you want to get worked up about something, there are more important causes out there.



Women making the choice to dress a certain way in real life has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. Starfire and Catwoman are not real people. They are comic book characters. Writers decided to portray them in a way that focuses on their bodies over their actual personalities. That’s objectification. What you have started IS saying that because women dress a certain way, objectification is okay.

Women in the real world making actual choices gives them agency. Writers portraying women as one-dimensional sex toys gives them no agency at all. There’s a big difference, and if you don’t understand that, perhaps you should learn a bit about it before you try to wade into a debate that you admittedly don’t really care about.

Maybe it’s not an important issue to you, but as a woman who has to deal with men who think that it’s okay to treat women like a sex object and not as a person, it’s an important issue to me.



Tastentier says:

Personalities? There aren’t many superhero types who have anything like that. With few exceptions, they are all pretty one-dimensional. Let’s have a look at the male characters in those two #1 issues: Jason Todd / Red Hood is a stupid macho type and a braggart. Roy Harper / Speedy is a dork who will happily jump into bed with any woman who asks him, even if she’s in a relationship with his friend who just busted him out of prison. On top of that, he wears as little clothing as Starfire in the beach scene. Unlike her, he even shows off his bare nipples. And if anybody objectifies someone else in this scene, it is Starfire who treats the brainless human males as interchangeable living sex toys. If she was a male character who treated women in this manner, then you would really have grounds to complain about chauvinism.

The same holds true for the new Catwoman. Batman — depicted as another stupid male who is unable to resist the charms of women — initially doesn’t want to have sex with her, but she easily seduces him and has her way with him. As with anything else, she takes what she wants and doesn’t care about the consequences. He shows as much bare skin than she does, bra-covered cleavage versus bare, six-packed midriff. And Catwoman is clearly the more interesting and multifaceted character out of the two in this issue. Batman just shows up for the sex scene, a weak-minded hunk with premature ejaculation problems who is putty in her manipulative hands. Once again it is the male who is being objectified here (plus seduced and almost raped, seeing that Selina doesn’t take his No for an answer). If anybody had a reason to complain, it would be the male readership :)

Anyway, stereotypes without any real personality are not the exception in superhero comics, they are the norm. What I am personally a bit upset about is the fact that nearly all DC heroes are extremely attractive, whereas the majority of (male) villains are depicted as physically ugly nerds, geeks, brainiacs and freaks. There are a few geeky, intelligent heroes, but most of them are gormless jocks, and even the high-IQ heroes have the bodies of fashion models. I don’t complain about this kind of stereotyping though, because we’re talking about superhero comics here. If I wanted literary awards winning character complexity, moral relativism, and profound socio-cultural commentary, I wouldn’t read stories about flying people with super powers in spandex costumes.



You’re very much missing the point. And yeah, this comic is badly written. But it’s also offensive. Starfire and Catwoman are sexual objects in lieu of having personalities. That’s offensive.

Look, I’ll be blunt — you don’t understand what’s being discussed here. Your attempts to “educate” me are offensive and uniformed. For one thing, comics don’t have to be nothing but throw-away stories, but even if they are, they don’t have to be this level of offensive.

Please stop coming on my blog and trying to make this about something it isn’t. And do not tell me, after years of having this sort of crap shoved in my face, that it’s the male readership that has more grounds to complain than the women. Perhaps if you knew what objectification was, you’d know why it’s problematic, but given the way you’ve completely missed the point in every single one of your comments, you clearly do not.



Personally speaking, I find a bit of exposed man-flesh to be quite a bit sexier than bravado and posturing. But, you know, I must be a freak. It’s not like what we find attractive (and what we demand of people before allowing them to be valued) is culturally defined or anything…



Perfectly said.



Thanks! I really liked your blog post as well, with your daughter. It made a very good point.



This was an absolutely fantastic response. It’s also why whenever I see a post with over 100 comments (hell, over 30 comments, but you see my point), I don’t even have to read any of them to cringe a little. Because I know that for every one “Hey, good post!” comment, there’s a dozen just like the ones you mentioned.

But if this week of terrible comics has taught me anything, it’s that as a writer, I need to Think Things Through. I think the “try not to actively repulse an entire section of audience” is a good rule for all writers to keep in mind.



Thanks! That is a good rule. I think there’d be a lot better stories out there if more people followed it.

I tend to avoid comments sections a lot because all the stupidity usually makes my head hurt. A lot of the responses I was commenting on weren’t even just comments — they were reviews and other people’s blogs. It seems a lot of people didn’t really think Catwoman was so bad after all and that everyone who did was just being silly and reactionary.



marlon bowman says:

A very thoughtful and sincere post. The only challenge are the market forces and how the companies interpret them. What pct of readership is currently female? (My gut: less than 10 pct) And yes, the opportunity to expand female readership is missed but companies have never shown themselves to be good at market development for their products – they mostly focus on maintaining and competing in existing markets. I guess the thing I’m saying is their is a strong analogy between your diatribe and the diatribes we had about people in colour in comics years ago…or on a more fundemental scale – minority representation in society and art. Have action movies really changed since Arnie and Stallone in the 80s? (despite muslim complaints in the 90s). All that said, given the history of our beloved artform has always showed elements of progressionism in its often thinly-veiled criticisms of the political landscape and the world at large, it’s sad to encounter an area where comics are behind the curve. I believe the sex of comics(latent or blatant) is a fundemantal tenant of creating great comics. Simultaneously, sex without consistent characterisation should have no space on the shelf…part of the internal nerd complex that comes with being a comic fan is we’re supposed to be better than that.



I think the actual statistics of the number of comic readers who are women is closer to 30%. Really not a sector of the market DC can afford to actively disengage with. They made some rumblings about trying to be pro-female reader when the new 52 was announced, but it was mostly lip service that tended to be undercut by some people high up at DC making unfortunate comments and being argumentative about the issue at conventions.

The point of the new 52 was, supposedly, to court new readers, because if they just wanted the readers they already had, then why change what was selling to them already? It was a bold marketing strategy, and one I’m not sure they executed as well as they should have, given the backlash. People are talking about them yes, but at what point does any publicity stop being good publicity?

There is definitely parallels between sexism in comics and racism in comics, and they’re two debates that are still actively going on. The audience of comic books is still seen for marketing purposes as mostly white males, although the numbers there have shifted radically in recent years. In 1995, 92% of DC’s audience was male. But this isn’t 1995, and what sold in 1995 is already outdated and has no place in the world 16 years later.

I agree that we are supposed to be better than all of this, and I hope that if people keep speaking out against all kinds of bigotry in comics that we’ll grow to a point where we are better than this.



I don’t think I ever saw comics for it but I remember the animated series that I really enjoyed that was one of the few “Culturally Diverse” cartoons I had seen air in America a few years back if not a Decade back. I don’t recall how long it’s been. Static Shock! One of my favorite series and I thought it seriously had good story. Not sure why they stopped making it.



enteecee says:

The real question at the top of your post should not be “What pct of readership is currently female?”, but “What pct of readership is turned off by this?”
I’m turned off. I was actually thinking about this as a point to jump back on Catwoman, having not followed the title for years, but now there’s no way I’m giving them my money for this. I’ve asked around and all but one of my male comic-fan friends is pissed off by it, too. So even if they’ve only got 10% female readership, the numbers are much higher when you take into acount male readers who aren’t total dicks.



I think that’s a good question to ask. Considering that comics sales have been on a decline recently, I don’t think DC can really stand to lose much of anyone. Right now, even if the female readership was only 10% and the only readership they lost was female (which, as I can tell from a lot what I’ve read from men, is not even the case) that 10% would be a pretty significant dip in sales numbers.

If they’re going to only cater to the section of their audience who wants nothing but cartoon sex dolls, then they might be surprised to find out that’s possibly an even smaller number than the percentage of female readers.



Just a note: perhaps the word “diatribe” isn’t the one you’re looking for. It has a very negative connotation. Although there are moments of forcefulness and maybe a spot or two where some bitterness shines through – how could there not, considering the personal nature of the hurt involved, as well as the distressing history behind that personal hurt – this piece is largely measured and thoughtful, a reasoned engagement with a serious issue. Diatribe suggests sarcasm, bitterness, invective; it is often abusive and highly ironic. It’s synonymous with “screed” and “tirade.” And, sadly, when assigned to a piece of writing written by a woman, it tends to connote hysteria and blinding emotion.

The content of your message doesn’t led one to believe that you actually think Ms Snarky (despite her name, which may very well set one up to expect an ironic, snarky screed or diatribe) has written in this instance a diatribe. But still, I’m a pedantic motherfucker and thought I’d demonstrate t with this note ;-)

Also: wonderful piece! If I didn’t think it so wonderful and heartfelt and important I wouldn’t have bothered to correct the usage of “diatribe.” Because a diatribe it ain’t. And I thank you for it: I’ll definitely be turning my students onto it; it’s an important contribution to the discussion of gender and audience in comics, especially mainstream superhero comics. Again, thank you. This is a fine piece of writing.



I didn’t see the response below marlon bowman’s comment. Just to clarify: I was responding to Marlon’s use of the word “diatribe” to characterize Ms Snarky’s blog entry. I hoped my response would appear immediately below Marlon’s, which, sadly, it did not. Oops!



Thanks! I’m glad you felt like it was an important contribution. I tried to bring something personal to the conversation in hopes that it could be something people could relate to and that it would put a human face on the issue.

I noticed the word diatribe, too, but figured with all the other, actually insane ranting comments, I could let it slide as a not-intentional slam. :)



Nile says:

A comment, here, from the unreconstructed Neanderthal Alpha Male…

Sex sells. But does it really have to be *bad* sex? Who are you selling that to? Dorky failures and teenage boys who don’t know any better, yet?

I can’t possibly be the only straight guy who’s bored with seeing women drawn and written and portrayed as harmless fluffy sex bunnies, or compliant blowup dolls. It’s DULL.

Maybe that kind of thing appeals to unsuccessful men – but the fun in sex is that it’s done *with* someone, not *to* them and that, in turn, is all about engaging with a person.

Which is, in its turn, a matter of confidence, in oneself, and in trust, and in enjoying what is ‘brought to the party’ by all participants, rather than in fearing and mistrusting and, as a consequence, denigrating and slut-shaming them.

A confidently adult erotic reality is, of course, a more challenging eroticism to create than passive fantasy-dolls. But it can be written, and drawn, and portrayed, and it should be. Among other things, there is the question: “How do we cultivate the sexual development of teenage boys?”

Let’s not forget that teenage boys have access to the internet, and can get hold of anything they want. But they start elsewhere, and comics are one of the starting-points. Do we want to start them off on the road with all the women they fantasise over being nothing more than characterless sex-bunnies? That leads on to objectification, and downward to the creepy dead-eyed pornstar, mechanically intoning “Yes I want it”.

Believe it or not, there are failed men who get off on that. What disappointing partners they must be… But we are creating more of them, every time images of women-as-objects are sold, or consumer goods are marketed to unsuccessful men that way.

Where the road ends up is deeply disturbing, and I can give a snaphot of it from a deep-in-the-whiskey guy-to-guy conversation in which I asked someone: “But why rape fantasies? There’s a *hell* of a lot more to get off on in a fantasy of enthusiastic participation!”

I hope the guy receiving that advice sorted himself out, or got therapy to deal with it. Or killed himself because, you know, I happen to think we’re all better off without that creepiness towards women, even if it doesn’t turn into an active physical danger.

And midway between here, and where he is, there’s a lot if men who were once teenage boys – and maybe still are, inside – who could’ve had a lot more fun developing their internal images and fantasies of sex, if the source material was more like women, as people, with personality and agency, and participation rather than objectified passivity.

They would be having a lot more fun now, and they would be better men.

Meanwhile, everybody reading comic books gets a better story, with better characters that we can engage with, identify with, and bring into our own internal pantheon of heroes and villains, gods and men and women that we might, someday, grow up to be.



One of the best things about posting this is seeing the response from male comic book fans who feel the way you do. As someone who has dated guys who act like the less evolved ones you describe here, I can tell you you’re theories about how they treat their partners are spot on.

I’m fine with sex in comics, and I think it can definitely have a place. It just definitely needs to be sex that realizes there are two people involved, not one person and a sex toy.

Thank you for your comment. I really appreciate getting the point of view from the male side when it comes to why all of this is problematic.



Nile says:

It’s always good to hear that someone finds some use in my opinions!

A point to clarify: I’m talking about erotic imagery, not just about depictions of sex.

That’s a difficult definition to pin down: the thirteen-year-old me was turned on by any image of an undressed, or revealingly-dressed female form. But as an adult, I’ve moved on: most men do, and the erotic image isn’t the body, hidden or revealed, it’s the body language – the signals of availability, the hint of interest, the conversation in curves and glimpses in which we communicate that she likes her body, that she’s happy to let me see more, do more, be more than some leering loser.

…Which is, unfortunately, the losing role asssigned to anyone reading that godawful Faceless-Catwoman scene in which we get stolen glimpses of red underwear beneath the latex.

The thirteen-year-old I used to be would’ve delighted with it but it’s so much less than it could’ve been if there had been a *conversation* of glimpses and body language there: imagine a look that says: “I know what you just saw… And I’m enjoying teasing you”.

Now picture that, leading on and into seeing more, doing more, and on into the sex scene. That’s erotic and then some; far more so than the car-crash of a peepshow followed by a coldly mechanical depiction of faceless sex between strangers.

Which is to say: the teenage reader might’ve been turned-on, but he (and she!) is being sold short because the artist is lazy and the publisher knows that he can get away with selling low-rent soft porn to teenager boys who don’t know any better.

Yeah, part of my not-so-moral indignation is the knowledge that my younger self was ripped off.

…And my comment isn’t just about sex.

What else? The car-crash metaphor has some mileage: it’s jarring to see sexually-explicit images with no context and no sense of attraction. And that, I think, is the big problem with the second example you gave, the picture of a bikini-clad heroine leaning over in an unnatural and uncomfortable withing pose…

I’m going to be blunt about that image: the only woman who would do that is a sex worker, and she’d do that to turn on a john she’d tagged as habituated or conditioned to it by consuming low-rent porn and ‘comic-book’ images of women in his formative years.

Think that one over. It’s a very sour observation, and a very difficult point to make without sounding like some nineteen-thirties moralist. But it’s a point that someone needs to make to Marvel Comics and DC, if they have any hope of turning away from the downmarket dead-end they’re driving into.

I’m pleased to hear that you still care.



I agree with that. I know from my experiences as a writer, it’s a lot harder to write good erotica than it is to write more obvious sex, and it’s clear here that they decided to take the easy way out.

Starfire was definitely more sex worker than superhero in that comic, and that’s sad. And while that may appeal to the immature, it’s a shame when a writer thinks he has to appeal to the lowest common denominator. From the responses I’ve been getting, there’s a lot of men who would rather read what you’ve described when it comes to sexual situations in comics. I hope if anything good comes out of this, it’s that it’s at least got both men and women voicing that sloppy writing and juvenile portrayals of sex are not what they want in their comics.



TSpeaks says:

This, and your following reply, were wonderful. Being in the percentage of people whose more juvenile selves felt “ripped off” by the sloppy erotica, I was glad to see my own feelings put so eloquently.



Pouches Forest says:

Loved this! I have read a great number of posts about this recently, and also more general obes about how female fans are treated by the comic industry as a whole. I think he entire industry needs to step back and take a long look at how it treats females.

I hate to say this is how it will always be, but based on the vast number of brainless responses I’ve seen I think it may be the sad truth. I want change so much. I quit reading the big 2 years ago because of similar issues, but I would love to come back. I had hoped this relaunch wold be the time. Sadly I see it has only gotten worse.

Until comic creators change, I will stick to my ‘girly manga’. At least there I know what to expect.



There’s a few comics out there that I read from Marvel, that I really like and feel like have stronger female characters that ones that are just objectified. I think it will eventually change, and there’s definitely progress, but seeing backsliding like this is disheartening.

I love superhero comics enough to keep hoping that things will change for the better. In the meantime, I try to give my financial support to creators who seem to realize their audience is not all male.



Shostakovicz says:

Read what you enjoy. Like what you read. Live your life the way you want to and quit telling everyone else how to live theirs. The world is the world. It ain’t perfect, but it’s the only one we got to keep our stuff in. You don’t like it? Work to change it. Don’t just post a whiny blog entry about how you’re a girl, and comics with busty girls are discriminatory. I’m a feminist. I believe in equal pay for equal work. I respect people who earn my respect, regardless of gender. I do not respect those who simply whine about how one should respect them. I believe that women and men both make up the world and neither one is overly special. I take every woman I meet at face value (please spare the the rhetoric on how the term “at face value” is sexist in and of itself, I’ve heard it all). If a person, regardless of gender is competent at what they do, they have my respect. If they’re incompetent, they have my derision. I don’t care what’s between your legs or on your chest. Do the job, get it done and done well. Then you’ll be respected.



If that’s how you feel, maybe you should take your own advice and not leave comments on other people’s blogs telling them how to live their lives. Especially when you clearly didn’t understand most of what they said. Just a thought.



FlyByNight says:

No.

They’re a large media presence that is portraying certain types of people as sub-human. This is a problem. I will speak up and say that it is wrong.



Why is there always some doofus who thinks his respect is the point of the thing? I’ve been seeing that line about “I respect people who earn my respect” repeated almost word-for-word for decades now, always by some guy addressing a woman who’s smarter and a better writer than he is. He invariably assumes that his approval is necessary in order for her opinions to matter. His own opinions? Unquestionably important.

They never understand that they’re irrelevant.



FlyByNight says:

“He invariably assumes that his approval is necessary in order for her opinions to matter.”

Well said. Treating all people like human beings is a moral imperative, not something reserved for those who have ‘earned it’. Statements like Shostakovicz’s boil down to “If you feel like people are treating you badly then you deserve it. And you’ll continue to deserve it until I decide otherwise.” Eff that.

(And how are women ‘not getting the job done well’ and therefore deserving of derision in comics? Are the comic book characters themselves not doing their jobs well, and therefore can’t be written as anything other than bimbos? Or are real world women below some arbitrary threshold at which we’ll be portrayed as actual people in comic books? It makes no sense. I’m not going to play some game in which we have to earn men’s approval in order for them to treat us like people. That’s utter BS.)



Not to mention the point where he’s never met me, but is going to judge from one blog post whether or not to respect me. Because, you know, that makes sense.



angryowl says:

How exactly do you propose we change the way comic books writers portray women? How should we let the industry know what is or is not acceptable to their female readers? Maybe by making our opinions known and gathering support for said change?

Writing an articulate post that covers all aspects of your objections is not whining, although I’m not entirely certain you read enough to get the whole story, since you think Ms. Snarky’s whole point in writing it was to say “I think busty girls in comics are discriminatory.”



snell says:

Bravo on the post. It just stuns me that the the higher-ups at DC actually approved these stories, in the much vaunted and publicized first issues. Are they so clueless that they couldn’t see how upsetting this would be? Or did they just not care, and thought any publicity is good publicity, and as long as people are kvetching about Starfire and Catwoman online, that will drive sales?? Probably the former, as the current leadership at DC is blind to why anyone would find their attitudes toward females (depicting them or hiring them) problematic. Of course, perhaps even more problematic was that they thought these were good stories to begin with…



From what I’ve heard higher ups at DC say in interviews and from panels at SDCC, I think it’s a mix of being both clueless and not caring. They clearly both don’t think they have a high male readership and don’t understand why this is problematic for both female readers and for male readers who want comics that do more than pander to what someone thinks they want.

There’s only two women currently writing for the new 52. I think that says a lot right there.



Despite being a member of the Double X Club, I do have a couple of suggestions for comics that might interest you.

The first would be Chuck Dixon’s run and Gail Simone’s first run on “Birds of Prey”. Both were excellent. Another would be Gail Simone’s “Secret Six”. As a nice change of pace, there’s equal opportunity cheesecake in that one. ;)

Oh, and I’d appreciate it if you’d consider dropping me a line. As a fellow child of the 80s and huge fan of “Transformers” back in the day, we should definitely talk.



I’ve read a little Gail Simone, and I do like some of her work.

It’s always nice to talk to a fellow child of the 80′s. :)



Dixon’s “Bird of Prey” was a different animal than Simone’s. The former had more of a “two women versus the world” vibe to it and a lot of ongoing plotlines and intrigue involving occasional supporting characters Nightwing and Blue Beetle. As I recall, Black Canary was recruited by Oracle from a distance and didn’t find out who she was or meet her face to face until two or three years into the book’s run. Simone was the one who turned it into an ensemble piece by recruiting more female agents into the fold, such as Huntress and Lady Blackhawk.

“Secret Six” was interesting because the protagonists were all supervillains and thus morally gray to varying degrees. Plus, having an immortal asskicking lesbian and a deranged eunuch as two of your main characters keeps things interesting. ;)

Other stuff worth picking up that comes to mind are Mark Waid’s first two arcs on the late 90s “JLA”, specifically those collected in the graphic novels “JLA – Book 7: Tower of Babel” and “JLA – Book 8: Divided We Fall”. I also recommend Waid’s “The Flash: The Return of Barry Allen” (which is not same thing as “The Flash: Rebirth” miniseries by Geoff Johns and Ethan Van Sciver).

While it admittedly has ridiculous amounts of fanservice, another underrated book that I personally enjoy is Dark Horse Comics’ “Empowered” series by Adam Warren. It details the life of the eponymous, self-conscious, insecure superheroine who, due to the fragile nature of her superpower-granting supersuit, ends up being tied up more often than she does saving the day. Even though a series that was inspired by a series of bondage-themed commissions the creator was once asked to draw might seem suspect, it has more legs to stand on than you’d initially think. Honestly, it’s kind of pathetic that a cheesecake-laden superhero parody filled with Buffyspeak manages to tackle a lesbian relationship with more maturity and poignancy than most mainstream stuff I’ve read.

Anyways, I don’t want to post an impenetrable block of text here, so feel free to drop me a line if you’d like to talk things over more mano-a-womano.

Oh, and here’s something from one child of the 80s to another from my blog:

http://theragingfanboy.wordpress.com/2011/09/20/tales-from-the-convention-floor-sgt-slaughter/

Pardon my lack of photogenicity. Hopefully it won’t affect your enjoyment of it too much. ;)



Nicklas says:

This was damn good. Fantastic even.

And I agree. “this is how it’s always going to be in comics” is such a sad and infuriating argument. Accepting bad storytelling (which includes pandering to the lowest forms of a specific gender) as the status quo is not healthy for the medium — I thought the 90s already made that clear. I had hopes for the reboot, it seemed as a both insane and courageous move. Now though, it just looks as a stupid missed opportunity.



DC seems to think that by writing stuff like they wrote in 90′s, then they’ll make the money they made in the 90′s. I don’t think that strategy is going to pay off for them in the long run.



wally2069 says:

While I have little ability to speak on the sexism front, there is one argument that I hear a lot in my ventures.

If you don’t like what’s happening in comics (books/movies/video games/etc.), you don’t have to read (watch/play/etc.) them.

I get upset when dealing with this specific conversation. If the issue is worth discussing then nothing can be gained by asking the other person to go away. I refuse to be pacified just because other people have gotten complacent.

Keep on writing because we need more people like you; the thinkers who are willing to call a spade for what it is.



Thank you. That argument upsets me, too, even when it’s not things like this. If no one says hey, this isn’t working, people will just keep producing sloppy, bad writing. The world has enough of that already as it is.



“If you don’t like what’s happening in comics (books/movies/video games/etc.), you don’t have to read (watch/play/etc.) them.”

Sounds like a cheap cop out and if anything, I tend to wonder if THEIR even happy with the changes themselves. Or are they just as upset but willing to “Not rock the boat” over their feelings and beliefs because they don’t want the backlash of doing so?



itdraugr says:

As a male comic book reader, I found both of those DC reboot issues to be painfully bad. Neither one pleased, aroused or otherwise plussed me in any way. I came away decidedly non-plussed.

Catwoman especially went above and beyond the usual bad writing and eye-roll-inducingly disrespectful attitude towards women in comics. It was unpleasant, disturbing, and pretty much a chore to read. Putting aside all of the rather convincing arguments that the relationship between Catwoman and Batman should be more subtle, will-they-or-won’t-they, etc., this was just plain horrible, and in a way where as a male I feel disrespected as well. What does this say about how Judd Winick sees me, part of the male comic book reader demographic? I don’t want to look at Catwoman being depicted as a faceless, less-than-human object, and I sure as anything don’t want to read a comic where she forces herself on Batman in some creepy, perverted way that this idiot thinks must be my fantasy just because I’m a guy who reads comics. This isn’t what I signed up for.

As for Red Hood and the Outlaws and the Starfire issues, it’s a shame because not only does her depiction in that comic throw away years of much better writing and much more well-done character development, but it also completely ruined what could have otherwise been a decent book. The first few pages were an awesome prison break-out, and I was all set to add the series to my pull list, then it all went downhill by turning Starfire, who was an amazing character before, into a gross sex toy.

I completely agree with the female comic book readers and bloggers who have pointed out how blatantly disrespectful these two issues were. There’s no question – if we’re all being honest, there’s just no argument against that.

My other problem is as a male reader, because now not only am I disappointed with what DC has let happen here, but I also have to deal with being set back two decades into the stereotype of being the gross, creepy comic book nerd whose only idea of women comes from unrealistic and sexist bimbos in comic books. Thanks a lot, jerks, I love being reduced to a negative stereotype. Awesome.

I will say this much, though – many of the bloggers who accurately called out DC for letting these two awful comics get made have ignored two astoundingly better depictions of women in comics in the very same week. Supergirl and Wonder Woman were both good books, and in some ways were a return to form for both characters. It doesn’t balance the scales by any means, but at least it does show that, hey, somebody there understands something.



There are definitely good portrayals of women as well, although as someone who usually only reads Marvel, most of my knowledge of positive female portrayals are from the comics over on that side of the Big Two. I will say I didn’t read Wonder Woman or Supergirl, and I probably won’t, which, if they are good, that’s sad. It’s one of the problems with putting out something as horrible as these — it turns people off from reading anything else, and the good stuff gets lost in the shuffle.

I for one know there are lots of male readers of comics who aren’t anywhere near as gross as who these comics were pandering to. If anything, a lot of the people who have personally responded to me have been male. There’s a lot of male readers who clearly want smart, well-written comics with real female characters, and I hope that if anything comes out of this, the comics industry will get the message that no one’s happy with this — men or women.



“And really, if the only way you think you can get someone to read your comic is by selling them softcore porn, it is seriously time to rethink the quality of what you’re putting out and why people might really not be buying it.” — Bingo.

And all I’ve heard about the DC reboot points to a ‘creative team’ that lacks both the trueness of creativity and the concept of team. I was already on thin ice with comics, but now, I cannot imagine buying another. Egh.



There’s definitely still some really good stuff out there, even in the superhero genre. Ed Brubaker is a writer who continuously manages to wow me with how well he can present both a good superhero comic and good writing. Kieron Gillen’s work on Generation Hope has been stellar, as has Marjorie Liu’s writing on X-23 (both of which were comics I actually expected not to like to begin with, and quickly had my mind changed). Paul Tobin’s run on Spider-Girl was great, as was Greg Pak’s all-too-short run on Herc. And for another comic that was excellent and sadly canceled too soon, Thor, the Mighty Avenger is currently in trades.

For all the awful comics out there, there’s still a lot of writers who both clearly love the medium and know how to tell a good, quality story. It’s sad that hacks like the people putting this crap out at DC take away the spotlight from the writers who deserve it.



This is a really interesting post; a lot of what you write resonates with me. As a kid, I tended to dislike gendered toys (like GI Joe and Barbie) and instead I liked toys that I saw as gender-neutral: legoes, marbles, building blocks. I also remember being bothered by seeing how girls and boys were given different things and treated differently.

But I also agree with your overall theme of it being important how comics depict sex scenes and sexuality. People learn by example, and when something fairly mainstream like a widely-read comic depicts sex or sexuality in a certain way, people think that that way of looking at sexuality is normal or healthy. And…when a comic consistently depicts a particular type of sexual expression, without depicting others, it becomes even more normative.

I also really appreciate that you adopt a more nuanced take on the term sexually liberated. I think too often, people claim that being “sexually liberated” means being free about all types of sex, including anonymous sex. But I personally believe that this isn’t really what sexual liberation is about. I also think that in general, anonymous sex is more associated with sexual repression than it is sexual liberation. But perhaps that’s a whole other discussion.



I also loved Legos. Much to the dismay of my parents, who always ended up stepping on them.

I feel like to be truly “sexually liberated,” you have to be making your sexual choices for yourself, and not because of what you think anyone else wants from you or expects. I think someone can be celibate and still “sexually liberated,” if that celibacy is a choice they’ve made for their own reasons and not because they feel like that choice is something that they have to aspire to because of societal or gender rules. To me, it’s about understanding your own sexual desires and boundaries and making them your own, as well as not trying to impose your own sexual rules on everyone else. It’s about being comfortable with yourself and your choices about your own body.



I’ve read a lot of articles on this issue, but this is the first one that made me cry. Like you, I grew up with cartoons to the point that I dreamed in animation. I still love comics, still buy comics, and now MAKE comics as well. I’m also, to make myself even MORE of a misfit, a female engineer. All those interactions you described in a comic store? I have felt those my whole life, inside AND outside the comic store, ever since I discovered in the second grade that I liked adventure stories and was good at math.

For years I hated myself because I wasn’t a boy. I wondered throughout childhood and into adulthood what was wrong with me. When I was five, why I didn’t want to play house and barbie, but desperately wished to be Calvin and own a tiger? When in college, why did boys see me in class and automatically think “Ah, now I must take it upon myself to explain this calculus to the simpleton”? In the field, why did so many men see the need to tell me, “Gee, you’re not like other…uh…ladies.”? Why do men hear me say “I’m a Wind Resource Specialist” and immediately ask “What does a Human Resources Specialist do?”

I have received so much scorn for the choices I’ve made in life. The career I’ve pursued, the stories I read, and the stories I create. Not because the choices were bad, but because I was the wrong gender to be making them.

The DC reboot controversy has gotten under my skin and stayed there. I’ve had angry rants with friends and humorous jabs at the issue, all of which expressed the outrage, but not the WHY. I just could not figure out why this got to me so much until I read this article. Thank you for writing this, and for sharing your story and thoughts. It really helped this crystallize for me.



I have a friend who’s also a female engineer, and I’ve heard stories from her that are very similar to yours. It’s sad to me that even in this day and age women can be treated like less of an employee at a job they’re just as educated and qualified for as a man simply because of gender. I used to work in the accounting department a law firm, and the treatment I got from the male lawyers was a big part of why I left. It was pretty clear I was a silly little girl who couldn’t compete with them and their male lawyerness.

People claim that women are asking for “special privileges,” but we’re not. We just want the same respect a man gets when we do the same things, and the same freedom of choice to like whatever it is we like.



Ms. Snarky,

I’m not sure which of your categories this one will be filed in, but here goes. I’m addressing Starfire more than Catwoman here, mainly because I think the issues are more obvious in her case.

The issue seems to be taking Starfire, who was an intelligent and tough warrior, and turning her into a bimbo. It’s less what she’s wearing and more what she’s doing with it. Even granting that it’s aimed at a young male audience, it’s reasonable to ask whether this is what should be aimed at them. And it’s reasonable to ask whether a character who was a female role model in the comics should be taken away from the audience that appreciated that in her.

While I think I understand the issues though, I also think that critics are jumping to conclusions. They seem to believe that Starfire is going to remain an amnesiac airhead who thinks with her hormones, and that just doesn’t seem likely to me. I think it would be more reasonable to give DC a chance and see where the character goes in the next few issues.

My guess is that the character is going to gradually transform into a hero, and that where she’s starting from is part of the point. If they don’t do that, then I will agree that they’ve done a disservice to both the character and her fans.

Read More: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/22/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine/#ixzz1ZBLhY8an



FlyByNight says:

Yeah, it’s possible that they’re doing to develop her character and make it less offensive over the course of the series. But why should I applaud that? Yay, you started out with a horrible demeaning portrayal, and then made it less demeaning? That’s not character development. If they’d started with a promiscuous, sad, and lonely woman and then had her find herself over the course of the series, that would be interesting. But they didn’t start with a woman at all, they’re starting with a blow-up doll. It’s not really about what the character does, it’s about actually having a character versus having a two-dimensional excuse for soft-core porn. Does that make sense?

I guess it’s possible that they really were trying to portray a woman here, and epically failed. But honestly, it comes across like they just want the sexy and don’t give a s*** about anything else.



Well, they could be doing that, I suppose, but it’s not really an argument that holds up for me. Having Starfire pose in a bikini for no one but the male audience (and that was what was happening — just look at the scene with the kid who took her picture) does nothing to further or establish her character. If the writer wanted to use objectification through the male gaze as a plot point, well, not only is that weird, but it’s pretty bad writing, since nowhere did that actually come across in the text.

Critics aren’t jumping to conclusions when they say Starfire was used as an object of base male arousal and nothing else in that comic. What happens in the future with her character is a moot point here. What matters is that the writer chose not to simply portray her as a character at the start of an arc, but a character that, quite simply, is a blank slate. We have nothing here to go on but Starfire’s love of porn poses. That isn’t a character trait — that’s an artistic choice on the part of this book’s creators.

Frankly, after this, if Starfire does have an empowering arc, I’m going to have a really hard time believing it was what was meant all along and not thrown in there after the backlash.



You’re also overlooking the fact that there was nothing wrong with Starfire before this. Roy Harper and Jason Todd both had a ton of issues, but they had to “break” Starfire in order to fix her. This is just poor writing.



It’s unlikely to have been added after the backlash, simply because those things take time. And they aren’t likely to scrap an entire arc that they’ve already gotten mostly done just for that.

The objectifying stuff can serve to establish her character, by giving her a hill to climb and a background to come from. This is done with characters in the comics all the time. The Punisher went from a murderous psychopath to a grim anti-hero. Stephen Strange went from an arrogant surgeon to the Sorcerer Supreme. Harvey Dent went from heroic district attorney to Two-Face. Giving a character a background or beginning that contrasts powerfully with what they eventually become is a trope in itself, and when it’s used the depth of the hole that the hero has to climb out of is an important part of the character.

I have a feeling that people are going to say, “Well, starting off as a powerful psycho is better than being a vapid sex-bomb.” But it’s not better. It’s just different. It’s a different kind of hole: still a very negative character that has to be forged into something greater.

I won’t be a bit surprised to see this happen—not because I have any particular trust for DC, but because it just makes story sense. They couldn’t possibly build an entire series around a “hero” who doesn’t care about being heroic and never does anything heroic, but just tries to have as much mindless sex as possible. It couldn’t work, and there’s no way that they’re planning to try that. Starfire has to change in order to make stories happen, so she will change.



They can, however, make changes up until actual publication, which happens quite frequently in the comics industry.

Objectification is not a character trait. You clearly have completely missed what my problem is with these characters. It’s not so much what they do, but how they are portrayed. “Sexy” poses that no woman would ever normally stand in, showing more of a character’s body than her face, having other characters talk about a woman like she’s just a sex object — these are objectification. They are NOT a part of someone’s character. What needs to change isn’t Starfire — it’s what the writers and artists think is an acceptable way to portray a woman. You’re responding to an argument that is not one that I’m actually making in my post.



Thank you.

As a father raising a daughter who enjoys superheroes, transformers, Star Wars and many of the things I adore and support as a “FAN”, I have been disgusted and outraged by DC and Dan Didio more than ever with this recent farce. I take enough crap for just being a fan of Aquaman, let alone a guy who likes books put out by the company that thinks four pages in a comic without a picture of the protagonist’s face is acceptable.

As a parent, I shouldn’t have to censor what comics my daughter reads from the big two; they should be well-written with characters that provoke thought and inspire readers of any gender or sexuality to be better people, to aspire to be a fraction as noble, heroic, self-sacrificing and responsible as the characters we read on a monthly basis.

Thankfully this is the last week of New 52 titles. I can get the ones I ordered, read them, and then take the time to reflect and make a decision as to whether I can accept the good with the bad that DC has provided, and then make an informed decision as to whether I will support DC at all. And all of this in the light of being able to look my gorgeous daughter in the eyes and tell her why Daddy reads the comics he does. Because let’s be honest, I can’t be a hypocrite and have a set of books that I read and a set that she is forbidden from reading (Yes, where age-appropriate, but I am planning on her getting to the correct age at some point, and inheriting over 40 long boxes…) due to a difference in gender. How could I tell her that it is okay to read and enjoy comics and the things I do and then also exclude her from reading the ones written exclusively to fuel my lower impulses?

It just seems like a total lack of responsibility on the part of the writers, editors, and management at DC.

I digress. Thank you for being so clear and concise, and for sharing your thoughts on the subject. You can now count me as one of your “fans”.



Thank you. I’ve been very happy to see so many responses from men on this issue, several of whom, like you, are fathers of daughters. I don’t have any children, but I have a much-younger sister who I also have to worry about what she does and doesn’t read. I can’t just hand her any comic from Marvel or DC — not even their main line. Hell, I can’t even hand her books marked teen, and she’s fourteen years old.

I’m actually planning after all of this to post about comics that are good for younger readers, whether they be male or female. There’s so many wonderful comics for younger people, and they’re sadly not highlighted as much as they should be.



Dangerboy says:

Well written, indeed.
As one who has at times both ogled and objectified, and engaged in pathos or antipathy with well written character, I agree. Objectification has its place, and I was hoping new 52 wouldn’t be it.



Me, too, though I’m not overly surprised it was there. I do hope that with this public outcry though, we might be on the downward slope if its existence.



Chloem says:

Ive been reading a lot of these posts lately but I really liked your take. My first thought to all this is that DC missed a prime opportunity to majorly open up the fanbase with the New52. It was a chance to bring in solid and grabbing stories but ended up being (in this instance) cheap fanfic porn. I would love to see a female lead written by an actual female. Or at least a male who isn’t catering to 14 year old boys. I really don’t think DC realizes just how many people they turn off when they publish this crap. I love comics (Iron Man being my favorite, I have a collection of the first series issues) but have been looking for a female superhero comic to get into. I was so excited to hear about the New52 and so bummed when I saw Catwoman. Guess I’ll stick with marvel for now. :/



I’m definitely sticking with Marvel. It’s not perfect, and I hate it when I see good, female-centric comics like Black Widow and Hawkeye and Mockingbird cancelled, but at least I know which comics to look for there. Plus, I don’t feel like I’m supporting a company that thinks putting something like that issue of Red Hood out is totally okay.

Have you read any of Marjorie Liu’s X-23? I’ve really been enjoying that one as far as comics in the superhero genre written by a female creator goes. She’s done some really interesting things with the character — and she’s even got a face!



Ritch says:

Well said. I hope the authors are paying attention. While they can’t do anything about the stories that have already been written, they can certainly make changes for anything that hasn’t been published yet. And DAMN, there certainly do need to make changes. I’ve stated that I want to support books with female characters, but this isn’t what I paid for.



Really. If I was okay with buying any comic with female characters, I’d buy Tarot Witch of the Black Rose.

I hope they are, but from some of the comments I’ve heard from DC, I’m not sure they really care.



[...] Blogger Ms. Snarky wrote her own essay: “But what a lot of the commenters on Red Hood and the Outlaws seem to be forgetting is that Starfire is not a real person who made the choice to have lots of anonymous sex on her own. She is not a “sexually liberated woman.” She’s a character, who was written by a person – specifically, a man. Starfire’s preening in a bikini and talking about how she wants to have sex with people whose names she won’t even remember is not about celebrating the sexually-liberated woman of the Twenty-First Century, throwing off the shackles of male oppression. It’s about giving men the chance to fantasize about having a hot chick with big boobs want to do them without any consequences. Don’t believe me? Look at the responses to Starfire’s “liberated sexuality” by the male characters in the comic. They ogle her and they discuss their own sexual conquests of her. It’s not about Starfire and her adult choices regarding sex. It’s about male fantasy.” Read it all here! [...]



enteecee says:

These issues can be very dicey because the line between a woman doing what she wants, which happens to be sexy to men (or is intended to be, but by HER), and hijacking women’s sexual liberation is exceedingly thin and often in the eye of the beholder. But these two examples aren’t even close.
As a straight man (and quite a sexually open and aggressive one), I too feel driven away by this nonsense. I don’t enjoy this crap, and it embarrasses me to read it because it’s clear that the creators think I do. DC Editorial clearly sees me as a regressive, ignorant juvenile, as would any reasonable observer who saw me reading an issue like this. I’m as insulted by that portrait of me as a reader as women are by their own depiction. People already have too many such associations with comic books, and DC should be fighting that perception rather than feeding it.
All in all, I couldn’t have resonated more with Laura Hudson’s statement, “I’m so, so tired of hearing those messages from comics because they aren’t the dreams or the escapist fantasies or the aspirations that I want to have. They don’t make me feel joyful or powerful or excited. They make me feel so goddamn sad that I want to cry, because I have devoted my entire life to comics, and when I read superhero books like these I realize that most of the time, they don’t give a sh*t about me.” That goes for a lot of us guys, too.



I’ve seen a lot of guys react the same way you do. Odds are, if you’re a man who’s interacted with real women and actually been able to maintain a relationship at some point in your life, this isn’t overly sexy. I would be fine, honestly, with a comic where Starfire or Catwoman just wanted to have sex on their own terms. But this isn’t that. Not at all.



hatewheel says:

Your response is well ordered, well put-together, and so well thought out. If I were you I might have been too angry to piece this together, and I detect your anger; you no doubt spent a lot of time thinking and rethinking this post as you wrote it. I look on it as a work of genius. You hit on every point about this topic that is worthy of offense and needed to be addressed, and you answered all the counter-arguments—the stupidity and inanity and missing-the-point—brilliantly.

I am a male, I love women, I grew up with comics (the X-Men animated series on Fox was an obsession of my youth), and I too am disgusted by DC’s lack of empathy for the female audience. I am a freelance writer for White Wolf’s Exalted, a novelist and writer of short stories, and I have always been concerned with telling a story that would attract and inspire a female reader. I have always been very aware of my audience, and given to put myself in their shoes. This is not something anyone has taught me, but something I picked up as a matter of course over 20+ years of writing.

It does not surprise me that as I go on in life, I continue to gain more and more success as a writer, where the comic industry continues to flounder and fail. They clearly do not have anyone who understands what they are writing, why they are writing it, or who they are writing for, which is a large part of the reason why my obsession with Marvel and DC died in the middle / late ’90s. You don’t have to treat something like a business to make money, unless you don’t have the artistic talent or the guts to do the right thing, the brilliant thing, or the honest thing. Because believe me, a talented writer’s work will sell absurdly well, even when the industry is struggling. Stunts like the ones DC has been pulling are the desperation of a company that has no good ideas, no real writing talent…it’s not writing comics, so much as using the legends of our youth as puppets to make money. And really, when you have the right to write stories about SUPERMAN, BATMAN and WONDER WOMAN — the triumvirate of American Mythos — you have no right, absolutely no right, to fail.

-John Mørke



Thank you. I do have some anger towards the issue, but I think at this point, I’m mainly just tired. Tired and sad to watch comics fail to become what they should and can become.

As a writer myself, not many things upset me more than bad writing, and that got to me almost as much as the sexism. The story telling in these comics is just…bad. If you make a big deal, as DC did, about your all new, bright and shiny jumping off points, you better make sure you deliver a punch in that first issue that tells the reader that following you into your “reboot” was worth it. These comics failed at that on so many levels.

There are, however, good writers in comics. There are even great writers in comics. There are people who deserve so much more praise and sales than they receive, and it makes me even more sad to see the medium pulled down to this level when it takes the spotlight away from the writers who have earned it.



A host of excellent observations. Maybe someone in DC will take notice of all the comments like this and some change will be made. Starfire especially. I loved the Teen Titan’s cartoon (my first real encounter with that particular team, I was always more into Marvel comics), and Starfire was such a great character. Was. So very much was. Poor Starfire…



I really hope DC takes note. You would think with the popularity of the Teen Titans they’d want to capitalize on that with portrayals of those characters as, well, actual characters, but apparently they did not.



I’m sure they’re under the impression that since sex sells and writing complex characters is hard, they might as well default to the lazy path. Also, if you haven’t seen it a billion times already, you might get a kick out of this Shortpacked: http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/04-remedial-adulthood/math/



A great read,

And I totally agree if I wanted a comic that aroused me I would get a playboy. With my comic I want action, story and most of all fun. Not the feeling should I keep this laying around when my niece comes over. This is also something I do not want to teach an audience this is just well for a lack of a better word a perverted way of doing things.

I mean I 2 was looking forward to the reboot. Mostly because I am a big fan of Batman, Green lantern (yes I am a DC fan). But if this is the reboot then I think I should stop buying the comics and cherish the ones I got.



I don’t really understand why comics need to be both softcore porn and a comic book. Porn is pretty prevalent these days. Hell, if you want to look at naked Starfire and Catwoman, there’s always fanart.

I feel like a lot of this “new 52″ thing was doing a disservice to the fans they already have. It was a desperate grab for sales since apparently that’s easier for DC than consistently producing quality work.



GTLC says:

Let me tell you my experience with Starfire.

She’s new to me. I don’t read DC comics, being a long-time Marvelite, but I do watch their Cartoons. Not long ago I got hold of some Teen Titans. Now, I understand that in adapting the source material for the small screen the producers changed the characters a little, reduced them to their mythic essences, if you like. And of course the show was meant for an audience much much younger than me, a cartoon mad 36 year old! So when I came to Teen titans I only knew Robin, and he was the one I expected to warm to first. But to my surprise it wasn’t Robin. It was Starfire. And as the series progressed through the seasons I found that I loved Starfire best of all the characters. She was strong, funny, endlessly compassionate, just adorable to me. That first episode in Season 2? When she wakes up early, full of glee, to surprise her friends for Blorthog Day? Then gets crushed by them fighting? And her sad little speech warning them of the dangers of losing friendship? I must have watched that 100 times by now. Just that bit (although the rest of the ep is damn cool also). She’s got the biggest heart in the world and the strength of character to be heart and soul of her team, not to mention she’s wicked strong and fires energy blasts! I can’t imagine a little girl watching that Starfire and NOT wanting to be her.

So you can imagine when I saw that first issue of Red Hood what was going through my mind. And my heart. KNIVES. Knives were going through me. That…thing…cavorting around the beach like a swim-wear model is simply not Starfire. Not having read the Teen Titan comics I can’t say if that’s what’s always been there, but judging from the intense reactions of fandom online I don’t believe so. That issue is an utter disgrace to one of my favourite DC characters. DC should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. It actually makes me feel sick, that this empty-headed sex object could be part of DCs bold new strategy. That young women reading comics are being told that this is acceptable. I see Catwoman is being given the same short shrift; also deeply disappointing. I can’t imagine why any little girl would want to be either of these…’women’.

Your post was most eloquent on the subject. Thank you for writing it.



I’ve seen a lot of people tell a story similar to yours. Teen Titans had an audience of about two million viewers. The average comic book sales are a fraction of that. So, odds are, many people going into this “new 52″ to see what it was all about had at least some passing knowledge of Teen Titans, if not more familiarity with it, as you did. They could have capitalized on that by bringing new readers in with a Starfire that viewers of Teen Titans would recognize and love. Instead, we got this.

It’s a missed opportunity. And even if the New 52 are doing well so far (though it’s been one month, so I don’t think we can really count that as long term success) we’ll never know how well they could have done, had DC not alienated so many readers right off the bat.



Hi, here via io9! Just wanted to say, as a female comics fan (yes, superhero comics!) I am completely with you on all of this, and thank you for putting into words everything I was too inarticulate with rage to be able to say myself. Well done.



Thanks! It’s been good to see that so many other female comic book fans have been able to relate.



Thom Colgan says:

I agree with you 100%.



I don’t have anything particularly meaningful to add to the discussion, so I’ll just add a quiet voice to the pile: I’m a straight, male, 20-something nerd. Traditional comic-book target audience in a number of ways. And the idea that I’m supposed to find these characters interesting, sexually or otherwise? It’s insulting, plain and simple. This insult pales before the one done to women by these books, but marketers? Heads-up. You missed.



I’ve been really happy to see how many men feel the same way you do. I suspected it, but it was nice to see it confirmed. It is insulting to men to say all they’re capable to sustaining interest in is some T&A. It’s basically saying that men who buy comic books aren’t capable of actual thought or following a real plot, and from my encounters with many men in the fandom, that’s not at all the case.



Wonderful article. I particularly enjoy all of your responses to every general defense that is brought up whenever we rally against this sort of thing.

I’m passing on the link to your article to my readers.



Thank you for the kind words and for passing along the link!



Fantastic post. As someone else said the problem with Catwoman #1 is that they transformed the magazine into shameless fanfic. As a humble suggestion for good written super-hero stories, read Echo from Terry Moore. Actually, read anything from Terry Moore.



And not even good fanfic. Bad fanfic.

Thanks for the rec!



BasementDweller says:

Some of the characterizations of the responses struck me as a bit straw-man, but I’d be lying if I tried to act like they didn’t have some of the gist of my own thoughts on the issue. In turn, most of your responses have crushed most of my misgivings, though I already suspected DC had screwed the pooch.

Still, here I am, Straight White Male. I want you to have your transformers toy, to have comics that entertain you as much as me. I also like the shape of the female figure. I try not to be an ass about it.

If you worked in my office you’d never know just how much I like it, because to reveal it would be make people uncomfortable, and I commit myself to creating an inclusive work environment.

No big deal, I keep it to myself for 8-10 hours, go home and happily greet my partner whom I respect and love and turn on my nerd-man charm. She works, like me, and it’s a stressful week, and even though I know she’d obliged, it makes me feel guilty if I impose. I leave her to her new issue of “Walking Dead”.

I wait until she goes to bed and I fire up my browswer… in private mode… except most of the porn out there is suspect. I worry about weather or not the women making these videos do so on amicable terms, and whether its production contributes to dehumanization of women. I have little sisters, after all, what kind of example would a big brother who is cavalier about the vaguaries of the sex industry set?

Instead, finally, I load up some fictitious comics. It’s cheesy and obviously written by a man but at least it’s not hurting anyone… except for young girls (like my young sisters) who are bombarded with body-image issue inducing media. Crap.

Some SWMs out there will just lash out, maybe throw out pejoratives. I don’t think that’s fair, I understand that gender norms are cruelest towards women, and I don’t ever want my sexuality to create a hostile environment for someone else. I’m just trying to find an outlet, and I guess this lengthy post is saying: how can a SWM be sex-positive without also being anti-woman? It feels like a tightrope at times.



wandarox says:

Some smart porn that is not offending to women and hilarious at the same time: oglaf.com

If all porn was done in this manner, I don’t think women would even complain. In fact, we’d probably read the comic with you.



I would suggest perhaps you talk to your partner about that. I’m not sure what to tell you.

I can, however, assure you these were not “straw man” arguments. They were simplified and combined, but they were taken directly from actual comments and responses to these comics that I’ve read over the last few days. All of them.



BasementDweller says:

Right… maybe my example was a bit longwinded. Traditional conservative society is both anti-sex and anti-woman, while popular media/culture is pro-sex anti-woman. I don’t THINK the outrage over DCU is anti-sex pro-woman, but I don’t know what pro-sex pro-woman looks like, much less how a man could express such a viewpoint.

Maybe straw-man was the wrong word. I believe that someone actually said each point.



“Shut up, you stupid feminazis! I like sexy comics. And boobs!
These people don’t really even warrant a response, other than seriously, grow up or fuck off.”

I think you should take your own advice.



Sonya says:

You rock! Thank you writing this.



Spoiler says:

Another problem I have is that because of all the above issues, I have a tough time recommending comics to other women! So not only are they limiting my business, but they’re limiting so much potential business as well. Just yesterday my best friend told me that the rampant objectification of women in western comics is one of the main reasons she doesn’t read them.

ALL THIS MONEY YOU COULD BE RECEIVING YOU SILLY PEOPLE ARRRGH.



It’s definitely a problem, and one that I have, too. I’m actually planning to put up a blog post soon with a few of my own recommendations for comics that don’t objectify women and that both adults and younger readers can enjoy.

Women currently make up about 30% of comics readership. I feel like this could probably be a much higher number, especially considering how high the female participation level is in other fandoms, but there are a lot of women who probably take one look at superhero comics, get one of the numerous ones that treat women like objects, and say nope, not for me. As a woman who has found a lot of joy and empowerment in well-written superhero comics, I find this really sad.



I stumbled across this post via Michelle Lee’s blog on the topic. I have to say, it’s remarkable… we could be the same person. I’m female, late 20s, almost exclusively a Marvel reader… who fell in love with comics thanks to the Fox Kids X-Men cartoon and my general adoration of Rogue.

I’ve been on a year-long quest to try to get to know and love Wonder Woman. As a person who holds the topic of “women in comics” close to heart, it felt like I should be reading Wonder Woman. I tried with her reboot a year ago, but it didn’t work. That had nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with a convoluted plot that I couldn’t wrap my brain around. When the New 52 was announced, I was eager to give it another go. I picked out three titles: Wonder Woman, Bat Woman and Bat Girl. I think I was fortunate that I managed to pick the best of the best in terms of representations of woman rather than the other end of the scale. Nevertheless, I’m left with a dilemma. The three titles I picked up WERE good, but given the amount of money I already spend on comics on a weekly basis, do I really want to be handing over even more to DC? I’m not in love with them yet. I wouldn’t feel like I was missing much if I went back to my Marvel-only ways. This month was their opportunity to pick me up as a customer. I’m not really feeling very good about it right now.

One of my biggest wishes for the big two is that they would do more to court their female fanbase. I want them to realize there is no magic formula to “what women like.” I want them to realize that one of the best things they could do is just be balanced and respectful. At the moment though, I’d be happy enough with just some basic acknowledgement from DC that doesn’t have a “we’ve been backed into a corner by bad PR” vibe to it. (A la what they said after DiDios’ comments at SDCC.)

… so yes, thank you so much for writing this. I only wish the higher ups at DC would find some of the more eloquent blog posts (like yours) on the subject and really take the time to think about what’s being said.



I think there’s a lot of us out there. Now if only the comics industry would realize it’s not that hard to actually capitalize on that…

I’ve been going back and forth myself on whether or not I’m going to try some of the other, less insulting comics in the New 52, but I feel for me, it’s just all been tainted. And Dan Didio just…skeeves me. I think it’s probably a personal choice though about what anyone wants to buy. Maybe buying the female-positive comics and not the total crap will send a stronger message to DC than not buying anything at all. I’m not really sure on which is better at this point. I just feel like DC’s left me with a bad taste in my mouth.



I have two daughters, seven and twenty months old. I run a pop culture site called Komplicated.com. I’ve been angry and reviewed these books negatively at Comic Book Resources, but I certainly could not have completely obliterated the arguments of the proponents for this kind of madness as well as you. Thank you, thank you, thank you for this amazing post.



Thank you. And your daughters sound like lucky little girls to have a dad like you.



Just commenting with support. I’ve had almost exactly the same experience as you. I grew up in the South on animated cartoons. I loved She-Ra, but I ALSO loved HeMan and Transformers. I loved GIJOE. I wanted to be Scarlet or Lady J.
I loved Star Wars, but there were no tshirts made for girls. (now there is! huzzah!)
I started reading Disney Chip N Dale Rescue Ranger comics due to the animated series… and then I started reading XMEN. I LOVED Rogue.
I always felt weird going into the comic book store where I was ALWAYS the only girl. But now, being older, most of my girl friends also read XMEN when we were younger and watched Batman the Animated Series and loved Catwoman, etc…
Now…. I read stuff like HELLBOY and Blade of the Immortal… and yes, GIRLY MANGA. I loved Thor, Iron Man and Star Trek and Doctor Who and all sorts of “geeky stuff”.

Every once in a while when I go into the comic book store, I’ll just flip through a few titles that I don’t normally read. Most often, I find the art so bad (just from an art standpoint) or the obvious pandering to guys so bad that I’m not interested in giving the title a chance. So this sort of explotation isn’t really NEW, but… starfire and catwoman are SO BAD that like you said, it ACTIVELY OFFENDS me.
and it’s not because of what she’s wearing persay. I don’t mind female superheros looking sexy or scantily clad… it’s that they are NOT CHARACTERS anymore. They are cardboard cutouts for guys to wank off to.

and yes, it’s a lot of money that could be made by the comic book industry just by having reasonably well developed personalities on female characters and not ACTIVELY OFFENDING girl comic fans.



GI JOE and Chip N’ Dale were some of my favorite, too. I loved Gadget. And Batman: TAS is still one of the best cartoons I’ve ever seen.

I’ve heard people say that none of this matters because the New 52 is selling well. My question is how much better would it be selling if they hadn’t seemingly gone out of their way to alienate an entire gender?



This was an incredible, spot-on approach to these prevalent issues in comics. You really got me when I read:

“From that point on, my mother always had to tell the cashier the Happy Meal was “for a boy.” But I wasn’t a boy. And I didn’t want to be a boy. I didn’t understand why what was between my legs had any bearing on whether I wanted Transformers and Hot Wheels or if I wanted Barbie and Strawberry Shortcake. I still don’t. I liked the things I liked just as earnestly and just as much as all the boys I knew. Why was it theirs and not mine, too?”

Being a guy, I’ve never been in that position to see it from that viewpoint. But I always remember being in the drive-thru for McDonald’s and having my mom ask, “Can it be a boy’s toy?” because they had no idea of my gender. It was a minor headache because they didn’t know what gender I was in the car. For you, regardless of being in the car or in the store, you still had that problem.

I’ve always argued for fair treatment in comics, because it’s blatantly obvious that women in comics, for the most part, are treated like absolute garbage. It will happen one day. It never used to be like this – at least, not nearly as BAD as it has been since the 1990′s. In my eyes, it degrades not only the character, but the comic as well. Hell, the artist loses credibility with me when they draw improper costumes or unnecessary “cleavage shots.” Yet for some reason, the editors let it slip by while still “sticking up for female readers.”

I’m about 100% sure people would still buy comics if all the characters wore cardigans. I mean, look at the success and fanbase behind Runaways. Where were the big-breasted women and sex in those books?

All of those comments you get on the internet about being a “prude” or “deal with it,” are just internet babble. If you get any of those men in a room with you, one-on-one, they’d fall apart at the seams. They couldn’t hold a candle to what you’ve just said.

To make a long story short, you rule for standing for what you believe in – and for doing it so well. Hopefully one day, we’ll get the changes needed.

I’m definitely sharing this on my website.



Thank you. I hope the changes will be made. I think it is getting better, at least in some sectors of the industry. It gives me hope to know that while I may not be able to find what I’m looking for in these comics, there are other comics out there where I can. There are creators out there who treat women like human beings, and my hope is that we can reach a point where the rest of them will realize that you don’t have to pander to one group at the expense of the others in order to get people to read your comic.

I have faith that it’s going to get better. It’s just going to take time and people willing to ask for a change.



I’ve been out of the comics loop for a few years (besides reading what’s happening on various websites/blogs and cartoons and re-reading old comics), but I have a HUGE love for superheroes and the medium. I’ve been a harsh critic of this “reboot” because of the idea that we “need” a reboot (what we need is great stories and not so many epic events, the whole 00′s were one big epic event…). Now after reading about Starfire (how do you mess her up???!!!?!?!) and Catwoman, my fears have come correct. THis doesn’t do anything for the medium or to bring in new readers. In fact, Catwoman should be written and a tough woman who stands tall, not made out to be a “hot kitten…” I will continue to stay away and cherry pick what graphic novels I get, if any. At least I still have the Justice League and other DC Animated cartoons.. Great read, new fan Kofi.



Thanks!

I had the same concerns with the reboot. It seems to me that people are looking and interested in superhero stories. If they weren’t, the movies and cartoons wouldn’t do so well. If comics companies want people reading the actual comics, then they need to try new marketing strategies that aren’t the same old recycled things that market the books to the same people over and over again. They also have to make sure they provided top-notch writing so people will see that comics are more than a throw-away medium. The reboot did none of that. If anything, it did just the opposite.

It might boost their sales now, but I’m honestly skeptical how long they can maintain the boost before the numbers drop back down. And since even then, the sales numbers don’t touch the audience of movies or cartoons, then clearly, they’re still missing a large portion of a potential audience.



[...] Ms. Snarky’s Response as a Female Comic Fan Posted on September 27, 2011 by optionalplayer Please, please, PLEASE go to Ms. Snarky’s blog. [...]



I’m just curious what you thought of the Jim Balent issues of Catwoman if you are such a big fan of the character? cause there was a lot of T&A in that.

But yeah i don’t disagree with a lot of what you said.



I actually said that while I liked Catwoman as a kid and do like the character, I’m not really a DC reader. I didn’t say I was a huge Catwoman fan.

I also said that T&A isn’t my problem. Objectification is.



I can not agree more with all of this, I am self confessed part of the mainstream target audience, a young man, im 22 now and i started reading comics from ages 8 -9. and i will admit that during my puberty i did enjoy the cheesekaneness and skimpy outfits of superheroines but to have the characters sexiness be the only thing about this is appalling and helps spread the idea that comics, superhero comics in particular are immature senseless entertainment. and i reject that, ive read many mainstream comics that are intelligent and treat people of all types with respect, but the overall view of comics is this, senseless violence and sexism. I haven’t read either of these comics as i can only afford so many of the new dc comics, but ive definately heard about it and on some sites ive commented about how outraged i was, only to have others comment saying i am a prude and moaning about nothing, when i claimed that at the age of 8 i would have found the practically pornographic scene in catwoman upsetting, other commenters shouted “BULLSHIT”! it was annoying because it was true, but in any case i do find these scenes offensive, the Catwoman scene simply because it is soin your face, with 4 pages devoted to a sex scene where very little is left to the imagination, if i had picked up that comic i would have felt dirty and sleazy throughout those 4 pages, as for the red hood, the imagery is less “pornographic” but in many ways worse in its depiction of starfire. as far as i’m aware starfire’s always been promiscous, wearing very little clothing and not being embarrassed but she’s never been a sex crazed bond girl that she’s been turned into. she doesn’t seem to be character at all, just breasts on legs and i think that’s increddibly stupid and immature.



These comics have no subtly, and that’s a sign of immature writing — or writing for immature people, either of those. And it certainly doesn’t make you a prude to want to read a story with actual characters and not just bodies.

I can see where that scene would bother an eight year old. I think those people are forgetting what it’s like to be that young.



So. First off, my history is the same as yours. I also work in a male dominated industry [Tattoo Artist.] where essentially, women are the only things that really get tattooed. Mostly because of sexual objectivity. I think the comic book artists are scared to make men seem more sexual. Mostly because it’s such a taboo for boys to admit that other dudes are hot without going “OMG I’m totally gay.” As girls we’re socially allowed to look at another woman [even encouraged] and go, “yeah. Total hottie. Nice legs.] and we can do it without immediately thinking “welp, I just said that woman was pretty. I must dig the ladies.” As a societal whole, males aren’t really encouraged or supported to do so. [It's getting better, mind you. Dudes can admit that they have man-crushes now. Or Bro-mances.] So, in an effort not to scare off their main clientele, [which is getting more equal everyday] they still tone down male sexuality. I think it’ll get better. But it’s one of those things that aren’t going to happen overnight. I’m totally with you, and agree wholeheartedly. And in some comics, it’s already happening. [The graphic novel adaptation of the Anita Blake series features male strippers. Definitely geared more to female readers.] Rome is the mob. And unfortunately the mob is fickle.



I wouldn’t be as bothered if it was just female sexuality they were portraying. I get that the audience is primarily male, and that it’s going to skew that way. Although, I will say, there’s a lot of male sexuality in comics, too, even if it’s not pointed out as much. The men just tend to be portrayed as “sexy” as opposed to “sex object.” Hell, even back in the 80′s, Wolverine ran around with his shirt off all the time. And Gambit is more often than not portrayed as sexualized.

But with women it often crosses the line into complete, mindless sex object, and that’s what I really hope is on its way out. Maybe then male and female sexuality can be portrayed on equal ground in comic books.



[...] not really a comic book reader, but apparently these designs are for the most part all good among ladies who love [...]



Amen, sister.

I get so very frustrated when I run into men who say that there aren’t any women who love comic books or there aren’t any women gamers. What the hell am I if I’m not either of those things? My LCS had to stop tween girls (much like you were) from buying Catwoman last week because they just could not let that into their hands. It frustrates me how a company with characters I love is repeatedly stabbing themselves in the foot – seemingly on purpose and as part of some sort of arcane strategy to gain more readers. The comic book conventions I’m going to are filled with women and little girls who love these characters.



For starters, good for your LCS.

I see tons of women who love comic books, video games, action movies — all sorts of things that are “just for boys.” And yet for some reason, we have to keep struggling to prove our existence, never mind our right to exist. It’s ludicrous.

If nothing else, I hope the amount of women speaking out against these comics will make people realize that yeah, women buy comics, too. And maybe, just maybe, it’ll start being a little harder to ignore us.



judah says:

Well said, simple as that.
Glad I was pointed to your blog, it’s definitely going on my subscription list!



Thanks! I hope you like my other posts. Normally, they’re a lot funnier than this. Or at least I try to make them funny. Whether or not I succeed is always up for debate.



Emily says:

Love the post! I’m a fairly new-to-comics reader and I haven’t had a chance to read either of those yet. I might take a look at them (if my guy buys ‘em–he’s the comic book fan, I became a fan through him, and just steal his and read them), just to confirm what’s going on…but I agree with all the stuff you’ve said. I loved Transformers as a girl, too.



Jeremy Carrier says:

What I don’t understand is…Catwoman has always been like this. This is a big part of her character. Why the puritan outcry all of a sudden? Where was this 20 years ago?



Lynette Cowper says:

Catwoman has always been a faceless collection of b**b and @ss shots? Really? I’m pretty sure most comics with her in them included her face in the first couple panels. It didn’t take two pages of anonymous body parts before her face was revealed.



Well, for starters, there’s been complaints about sexism in comics for a long time.

Also, if you read my blog instead of simply commenting on what you thought it was about, you’d see that my thoughts on it are hardly “Puritan.” And no, Catwoman has not always been like this. She’s always been a sex symbol, sure — and I haven’t complained about that. She has not, however, always been basically just a pair of boobs and an ass.

If you read the argument a little more carefully, you might be able to better understand it.



Bryy Miller says:

DC also has a problem about being called out on this. During Comic-Con, Dan DiDio was pelted with questions about female creators as well as characters, and his response was to ask the audience who all these female creators were exactly.



DiDio at best allows for periodic press releases to pretend DC cares about women readers. But as soon as he’s asked questions on the spot, it all falls apart. I saw his disgraceful response at SDCC. It gave me reservations about the New 52, and then this came out, and it turned out to be worse than I’d even thought.



Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

This post’s message stretches way beyond the comics realm and should be heard by everyone.



Thanks! I’m glad you felt like it touches on something important.



[...] Anybody who’s read the article by Comics Alliance editor Laura Hudson called The Big Sexy Problem with Superheroines and Their ‘Liberated Sexuality’” has learned that controversy over DC’s reboot is brewing. I’ve already “said” my piece recently on DA, and Ms. Snarky captured WHY this issue gets to me in her article “A Response from a Female Comic Book Fan”. [...]



Indi says:

Thank you for writing this. I used to be a fan of comics, but this is a big part of what drove me away; cool stories by guys, about guys, for guys, and with gratuitous T&A. I went from reading a fair chunk of the Marvel mutant stuff to a handful of Vertigo titles, and now… well, there are better things to spend my money on. Every so often, I think about going back, and then I walk into my local comic shop, cruse the titles… and head to the back of the store where the gaming stuff is, happy that I’m not tossing away my hard-earned cash.



There’s still some good comics out there. Sometimes I feel like all the bad stuff outweighs the good, but I don’t feel like that’s really fair to the people who write good comics that don’t resort to cheap pandering.

As for comics written by women, two writers that I like are Kelly Sue DeConnick and Marjorie Liu (I especially like her recent work on X-23). Another comic that’s, sadly, been cancelled, but is still available in trades is Hawkeye and Mockingbird by Jim McCann.

I also posted last night about a few other comics that are good for getting young girls into comics, but they’re just as enjoyable for adults, in my opinion. They’re all comics I read and loved, and never felt like I had to deal with being objectified in order to read them. You can find the link here:

http://mssnarky.wordpress.com/2011/09/28/looking-for-comics-for-young-girls-start-here/



Chris says:

I can understand, or at least I can understand to a point. Being a man I can’t really say, “Oh I understand completely.” I don’t. I don’t completely understand your sense of alienation, but I understand alienation itself. I know what it’s like to be on the outside looking in and being told, “That’s really not for you. You shouldn’t like that because that’s not what little boys are suppose to like.” I love comics. I’m a ‘Marvel Zombie’ to be completely honest, although recently I’ve been buying more Dynamite Entertainment (love their Army of Darkness, Green Hornet, Dresden Files, and Vamperilla.). I do enjoy DC comics (I’ll admit that I’m a Batman fan.), and I loved the Justice League/Unlimited series on Cartoon Network. I’ve viewed the number one issues of DC comics and I fell let down. I fell let down about Catwoman, because I came to respect Selina. I thought the world of her and viewed her as an independent woman, secure in her own sexuality, and certain of her place in the world. I felt let down about Kory because I liked Starfire. I liked her back in the old days of the Teen Titans and this is sort of a slap in the face. I know that DC is trying their hardest to get attention and they figure that a lot of no strings attached sex is the answer. I haven’t been this pissed since Brand New Day happened. I keep looking to see if Joe Quesada is secretly working at DC comics in an attempt to alienate even more of their die hard fan base. (Yes I have a bit of the JLU Question aka Vic Sage in my personality.)

I want to say that it will get better, but the only way anything is going to improve is if those of us who read comics, love comics, and love the characters from our favorite comics begin to write into companies who create our favorite comics and explain why we’re upset, what we believe could be done better, and hope to god that someone grows a set of balls in there and actually does something for the fans and not for the almighty bottom dollar.



I still pretend that Brand New Day didn’t happen. It makes my life easier.

I feel like these comics let a lot of people down. It didn’t do any the fans any favors either, and from a lot of what I’ve heard, it seems like they’ve done a good job of alienating people who had been loyal. I wonder how long they’re actually going to experience a sales bump.

I hope that this public outcry is a good step towards things getting better.



regularguy5mb says:

I completely agree with you on this. DC has alienated so many comics readers, including the more mature male readers (such as myself) who aren’t reading comics for fantasy-fulfillment, but for quality storytelling. And you can’t have a quality story without quality characters. What DC is doing right now is what every other comic company did in the 90s. In fact, it seems like Image (or at least the Wildstorm imprint that DC bought years ago) has completely taken over with this reboot. The inmates are running the asylum, because you really want to let the guys who were struggling to keep their independent line running and had to eventually sell to the big boys have total control over your very important product.



DC is doing what DC did in the 90′s. Sure, they sold more books then, but it was a different landscape, and the demographics of comics readers have changed.

Companies don’t survive by going backwards, and that’s what this is. They need to figure out this isn’t going to to sustain them past a short-term sales bump and figure out why people aren’t buying comics like they used to — and why so many people stopped in the first place back in the 90′s.



[...] are speaking out.  Men, women and children.  Maybe this time?  The publishers will listen.  Of course, when I stopped reading [...]



judah says:

@Indi….don’t let this turn you away from comics entirely! There are a lot of really good, well-written titles out there that don’t rely on T&A for their stories. BatWoman, Sweet Tooth, Walking Dead, House of Mystery, BPRD…the TPBs of Runaways (an excellent title that I’ll never understand why it got cancelled)…Kabuki…the list goes on!



Chris says:

Like Judah said there are a lot of really good titles, and I stand behind Walking Dead. I love that series, and I also would like to suggest Army of Darkness. It can be a bit campy, but it doesn’t rely on T&A to sell. There is a an extremely good story line (especially if you read the Hell’s Prophet arc.). I might also suggest Green Hornet, The Phantom, Red Sonya (It has a little fan service, but at least there is a decent story there.), and the comic version of the Dresden Files. All of which are fantastic reads.



well said. i hope DC listens.



Me, too. Although their reply basically being just to tell people to check the ratings doesn’t give me a lot of hope that they’re listening. I do hope, however, that there’s enough backlash that they’ll have to eventually change whether they like it or not.



Lex Luthor says:

I think that my only problem with what you posted is that because of the content of Catwoman and Red Hood, you won’t even bother to check out any of the other titles.

The problem that I have with this is that it essentially says that all of the 52 titles need to be exactly the same inn order for you to read them. If there is anything in any of the 52 titles that you do not like, then you will ditch the whole thing. That seems VERY extreme. Each of the titles are and should be different. Just because you don’t like the depictions in Catwoman does not mean that you would not like Wonder Woman, Batwoman, Batgirl, Birds of Prey or Supergirl. Its the demand for conformity that I find problematic. It would be one thing if ALL of the women in the new 52 looked and acted the way these TWO characters do. But they don’t…and you are not even open to the possibility that there might be things here that you would enjoy.

I have a real problem with that. Why is it a problem for DC to have two female characters that men might enjoy and actually read. As long as they are offering up alternatives for those looking for something else, there should not be a problem.

What some of the attacks on DC are missing is that come what may, DC HAS to be able to sell their comics to a male audience. Quite frankly there are not enough female readers of comics to support any one DC book. If they lose that male audience, the book will get canceled.

Here’s something to ponder…what will it say to DC if Catwoman ends up being a huge financial success for them, but the more subdued comics like Supergirl or Batgirl never find an audience? If DC reaches the intended audience for Catwoman, but something like Supergirl loses out because women like you won’t even give it a chance who really wins in the end?



DC only gets one chance at a first impression. If it’s so offensive that I don’t feel comfortable spending my money supporting their company, then that isn’t really my problem. The onus isn’t on me to support them — it’s on them to sell me something I want to support. And asking that every book they put out not have a woman that is treated like a sex object? That’s not asking a whole lot. If they can’t manage that, then they don’t get a new reader from me. It doesn’t really matter if it’s fair to DC.

Furthermore, they aren’t going to lose all their male readers if they don’t have female objectification in their comics. There are plenty of men who also don’t want vapid sex dolls in place of actual characters in their comics. The problem with this goes beyond objectification. It’s sloppy, cheap writing, and EVERYONE loses with that.



TSpeaks says:

Um… that male audience you mention already exists, and does not need to be convinced to buy the comic. They’d get it already. Adding a little more apparent depth to the character wouldn’t turn them off or turn them away (unless you believe that all males really are just walking hormones looking for more boner material). There’d be no risk of losing the male audience to show a sexy, confident Catwoman who actually does behave a little more like a real sexy, confident woman. All that would happen is that the people who are actively looking for something more to it will find it and not immediately be turned off. The issue here isn’t a sexy Catwoman, it’s that there’s a certain level of pandering to the lowest common denominator that is insulting to anyone with half a brain – gender aside. Comics are not in decline because they are lacking for T&A. An issue with the same exact storyline and outcome, handled just a little differently with slightly different art direction, could have been just as “sexy” (or in many opinions sexier), and not as offensive to those who took offense.

There’s nothing wrong in reaching out to more than just the intended audience. There’s also nothing wrong in putting your money where your mouth is and opting not to support a company that isn’t doing that to your liking. It’s not about wanting conformity, it’s about setting higher standards for our art across the board. Offer sex scenes that look and read more like real sex between two awesome characters, and I imagine nobody will feel cheated, including the lowest common denominator types.



Spitphyre says:

“I have a real problem with that. Why is it a problem for DC to have two female characters that men might enjoy and actually read. As long as they are offering up alternatives for those looking for something else, there should not be a problem.”

So you’re saying that Birds of Prey – when it was written by Gail Simone and sold EXTREMELY well – was a title that men didn’t like reading? With sexually liberated women who had REAL personalities and kicked ass? Because if this sentence of yours:
“What some of the attacks on DC are missing is that come what may, DC HAS to be able to sell their comics to a male audience. Quite frankly there are not enough female readers of comics to support any one DC book. If they lose that male audience, the book will get canceled.”
is to hold any merit it stands to reason that many men were reading BoP and buying it and it was selling. And they weren’t using the very sexy leads as simple wank-fodder.

A good title will sell to men AND women. This can happen with sex and sexuality and sexiness. This can happen with large breasts and tiny waists and skin tight costumes. But it requires making characters acting like people which – up until this point – most of the titles were pretty much pulling off. I’ve been reading Catwoman (yeah, I’m a girl) sometimes I roll my eyes and the cheesecake poses but it’s not been as bad as it was in Catwoman 1.

So DC sells to men, awesome. If they start opening up and selling to women? Well that might help them out some. And I can’t see their readers throwing their books down in disgust because they have decided to imbue personality and strong characteristics into sexy sexy sexy figured women instead of just giving them female characters that are a man’s idea of what a sexy woman acts like. (Instead of, you know, what a real sexy woman acts like which almost every person on the planet agrees, is usually way more entertaining)



Dunne says:

I rarely read comics of the category of “American comics” and frequent manga more often. I’ve seen characters depicted from both sides of the spectrum (confidant heroines to cheesecake then straight to T&A) and have noted that I’ve glazed over the objectification of female characters. I simply cart it off as “fan service” or some other definition/excuse, like that it’s part of the genre or story. I’m sorry to say that I’ve gotten used to it in manga, but sometimes it’s just because I know it will have that sort of content or it’s part of the story, or it’s something extra for fans.
But, even though I am male, I see what the depictions of the characters reffererenced (cat woman & batman on the roof) come off as what a slash or fanfiction creator/reader would have commissioned or imagined.
Honestly characters have been drawn sexy, but I agree that this sort of material is something you would find in the back of a smutt shop in a black sleeve. It isn’t sexy, it’s just, odd. Sure it depicts graphically that sex is taking place but there is no emotion, it’s just boiled down to “sex” in a rather monotone pronouncement, it’s not even pin-up art, or worth as an extra at the end of a volume.



A lot of it read like bad fanfiction to me. Definitely not at the level that someone who makes their living writing should be.

A good story has emotion that the reader can connect with. Otherwise, it’s empty and not compelling, and it takes away a lot of the reader’s ability to engage with what they’re reading.



Sage says:

Thank you. Your post is being circulated on tumblr. DC needs to know because…this is true. All of it. I have loved Batman since I was 2 years old. I am a certified female of 23 years of age. This is everything I felt explained wonderfully. They don’t understand because if everything was the other way around, if Roy or Jason were in semi-transparent speedos and two women were high-fiving over their mutual conquest in front of them and they reacted like zombies, or if Batman was fighting crime in a red lace thong and nothing else, it would be a problem. Fans are actually making art like this. It’s a revolution. So, thank you.



Have you seen this response from Comics Bulletin?

http://www.comicsbulletin.com/reviews/131707816075688.htm

It’s ridiculous either way, and I like what people have done to highlight just how silly it is by turning the tables. Maybe some people will see it and get the point.



BobBob says:

Sorry if this comes off as incoherent or poorly written, (I hardly ever have a coherent thought anymore) but I just wanted to say as a male reader of comics for over 15 years, I agree with everything you’ve said here. I’ve read Red Hood and the Outlaws, and was in shock with how Starfire was handled, but I haven’t read Catwoman because it looked tasteless (well, that and Judd Winick was the writer, but that’s a whole different issue), and based on what I’ve read online I probably won’t at this point. I think the problem is with not only how female characters are currently portrayed in the reboot, but how completely different they are from their previous incarnations. Part of Starfire’s original appeal, at least to me, was that while she may have been over sexualized to an extent, there used to be a genuine character underneath that that was both sweet natured and badass. As for what has happened with the previous Batgirls, I think that’s a wait and see as Gail Simone seems to have set it up so Barbara was Oracle during the three years she was in a wheelchair, meaning there is a possibility for the Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain (best Batgirl ever) to have existed at some point. I think what it really comes down to is having boys trying to write female characters when they aren’t mature enough to even write male character’s properly, or people writing characters they don’t understand so they change the character to the point where they can write them how they want. An example of this happening to a male character would be Spider-Man in One More Day. That’s something I can write about for days so I’m just gonna leave that alone.

Hopefully DC reads and learns from the backlash, and fires Judd Winick, but something tells me that’s just wishful thinking.

Thank you for putting your thoughts online here, they provide perfect insight into what’s wrong with the comic industry more eloquently than I could have stated.



Your response didn’t come off as incoherent or poorly written at all. You actually have a lot of valid points, and I agree. I’m still not sure what exactly they were trying to accomplish with the reboot (other than a desperate grab for higher sales), since it seems like it’s going to alienate at least some of the fans.

There’s sadly too many writers out there who don’t know how to properly characterize anything, and when you mix that with what’s clearly just a cheap sales number grab in the first place, well, you get this.

I wish they’d listen, but I’m sure DiDio thinks all of this is just fine and fans are just railing at nothing.



NorthernThoughts says:

I’m sorry, but you don’t know what you’re talking about. Where to begin…

http://comicartcommunity.com/

and…

http://www.comicartfans.com/

Just do a basic search for character and/or cover art for both Catwoman and Starfire. If you want to go further, Wonder Woman, Power Girl, Supergirl and Zatanna, (just to name a few), have very much the same kind of artistic work of the adult variety (Adam Hughes in particular). Throughout decades of comic book lore we have seen suggested nudity, even full blown nudity (like in the earlier Spectre comics), along with character driven stories that revolve around sex. What really irks me is that a twit like you would single out two of the MOST SEXUALIZED characters in DC Comics and complain about DC’s sexual portrayal. Have you not been reading Teen Titans, Batman, etc for the last two decades? Obviously not. This post sounds much like Captain Louis from Casablanca.

Let’s begin with Starfire okay? Have you not noticed her outfit since she was introduced in 1982? She might as well be wearing a swimsuit with how much skin is showing. Or how about how she learned English? The first kiss of many Dick Grayson has received in his long time on and off relationship with her. Let’s go even further back though, into her story. Prior to coming to Earth, she was captured, tortured and raped by the Citadel, one of Tamaran’s enemies. After coming to Earth, she and Dick had a long and physical relationship. From time to time, they even hook up, but lately they’ve grown apart. Fast forward to the Teen Titans animated series, and this whole history, as well as her entire sexuality is stripped from her for a more child-friendly persona. So it’s DC Comics’ fault for returning to the more established sexual Starfire? Where was this post when Koriand’r was flashing Lobo for his assistance during 52? Only outrage now that DC hasn’t made her more like her animated series self with the reboot eh?

As for Catwoman, have you or have you not looked at Adam Hughes’ more recent, pre-Flashpoint cover art? Have you or have you not been following her and Bruce Wayne’s relationship since Hush? How about her suggestive outfits over the years, like the purple skin tight one during the 90s? You complain about the tight leather, but that costume has been around for a few years now, even being used by Midway in Mortal Kombat versus DC Universe, so pardon me if I don’t think your offense to this is sincere. Simply put, you act as if DC hadn’t stuck with Frank Miller’s Batman: Year One’s depiction of Catwoman as a former prostitute turned jewel thief. That goes back to 1987, so just how long have you been reading Catwoman? I’m guessing you remember watching Batman: The Animated Series and pretended that Catwoman in the mainstream comic continuity was the exact same eh?

What I find really pathetic about all this is that all the complaints about this are from those who are or are mostly likely left-of-center in their political views. And here I though conservatives, myself included, were supposed to be the sexual prudes. I might not be a fan of DC’s Flashpoint reboot (Superman’s and Wonder Woman’s costumes need some changes), but this is definitely NOT something that has changed drastically, if at all from previous continuity. If you’re looking to score some points with feminists, educate yourself first on the subject of your posts. Pathetic…



You really, really missed my point.

My point was not the costumes. My point was that I have a problem with comics using cheap pandering of sexuality as a selling point at the expense of their female readers. But that’s clearly a point that you’re too obtuse to understand. I have a lot of problems with the way women have been portrayed in comics for a long time. This was just commenting on one specific instance.

I’m very sorry that you’re so insecure about your manhood that you have to belittle women on the Internet and try to sound smarter than them while calling them things like “twits.” How very sad for you.



NorthernThoughts says:

And you don’t think the costumes for decades hasn’t been cheap pandering? You think Starfire’s origin story, with the emphasis on torture and rape wasn’t cheap pandeirng? You don’t think Catwoman’s skin tight 90s cotume, which was almost always torn up at the end of a comic, wasn’t suggestive? And all this cheap pandering at the cost of female readers? I used to work in a comic store, and I can tell you that the VAST MAJORITY of those who came in were male. If you’re too obtuse not to see the forest for the trees, you clearly are a twit.

I don’t have to belittle women, I also belittle men who make write such stupid posts. Your ignorance, along with the ignorance of others who wrote posts on the same topic as you is dumbfounding. I mean, did you or did you not bother doing your research? Have you or have you not bothered to pick up a comic in the last ten, if not twenty years. You write this post as if Bruce Wayne didn’t have a love child with Talia al’Ghul, or Choi wasn’t sleeping with both male and female members of the Outsiders, or Justice League members weren’t sharing their sex stories from years gone by with former teammates, etc Aside from Roy Harper using drugs, when they weren’t fighting crime, from what’s been implied over the years, the Teen Titans were behaving like hormone-driven teens.

If you want to play this game, you better come equipped to do so.

P.S. What’s really pathetic is that you would think that simply because I am a male that I somehow view you as “weak” or “not equal” because your female. I’m guessing this sexism is par for the course with feminist hypocrites like you right?



I have never, ever said that objectification in comics is new. However, if I tried to write about all of it, it wouldn’t be a blog post. It would be a very, very thick book. I talked about these two comics, because this post was about those two comics. I don’t owe you my thoughts on all comics in the history of comics.

I never called you “weak” or “not equal” because you were a male. I don’t look down on men. I look down on assholes, male or female, and you’re an asshole.

I’m not playing a game. I was responding to your insulting, belittling, sexist comment on my blog. If would like to have a mature discussion about what I wrote on this blog, please actually read what I’ve said and comment on that, not what I haven’t said. It only makes you look like someone who came for a fight and, given the subject matter and what you’ve said to me, it makes you look like a sexist asshat. I have no time for people as small minded and combative as you.



NorthernThoughts says:

Touched a nerve eh? Don’t like being called out? I’ll say it again, feminist hypocrite. So you’ve never written about it before because it would take up too much time, but you do so now? Why? Because its the popular thing to do? So one ignorant feminist makes a comment about these two comics and you feel the need to join in? Pathetic…

As for sexist, what did I say that was sexist? It’s because I’m male and dared to question you eh? As for a mature discussion, why not start with comic book reflecting popular culture, and with the society becoming more and more sexualized, we begin to see this more and more in comics? Why not comment on the nature of women in comic books? Superheroines as sex symbols? That would be an interesting argument since Wonder Woman, the first superheroine, was created by someone who was clearly a misogynist. No, that’s obviously too intelligent for someone looking to score cheap feminist points with an ignorant post like this.

I found this post pretty offensive, which is why I have spent the time to comment on it. It reeks for the populist nonsense published by those who lack the intelligence to produce actually thought provoking material.



Chris says:

I think what was meant, or what I perceived it as, wasn’t the sexuality of the comics, but rather the poor portrayal of the characters. I know about how Starfire/Kory learns, and I know that Selina has often been considered a ‘sex kitten’, but both characters had grown into beloved characters. Granted Kory isn’t by any means an A-list character, but she still has a large following. She’s a good natured, bad ass, and sometimes naive woman. She doesn’t quite always understand the world she’s in, but still we watch her do more than muddle through. She manages to come out ahead, and that has people cheering for her. They took that kind of character, and excuse me if I am wrong, and turned her into a Paris Hilton wanna-be. She has no real desire other than bed several men she doesn’t know well enough to remember their names. That doesn’t sound like Kory to me. That sounds like lazy writing which is depending on the fan service pictures to sell the comic. Yeah… Sorry buddy, but if I want fan service I can get some Manga which shows a lot more. I read comics because I like the stories. I loved stories like ‘The Dark Knight Returns’, or Wonder Woman’s Blackest Night (Yeah I loved the kiss between Diana and Bruce.), The Watchmen, The Walking Dead, Army of Darkness (especially the Hell Prophet’s arc and Hellbillies and Deadnecks), Marvel Zombies, Marvel Civil War, and House of M. I know that in several of those comics I mentioned there is some fan service, but then again there is some fantastic story telling.

I would have been fine with a sex scene between Bruce and Selina if there was a reason for it. If it had lead up to it instead of having just splashed in front of us. I would have been fine with Kory expressing her sexuality in a bit more realistic manner instead of naming off several guys who where going to be conquests. Like I said to me it’s lazy story telling. I’ve already sent in my two cents to DC comics via their contact us on their web site. It’s one thing to complain about it out here, but I believe change comes from actually addressing the problem with those responsible. So, do I mind fan service? No, but I don’t want my comics to be fan service with poor characters and poor story. I would rather have an engaging story any day of the week. It’s one of the few reasons I’m still a huge HellBlazer fan. Sure, I know that it has fan service, but damn it there is a good story there. John Constantine is an interesting character, and his stories manage to entertain me. That reason alone is more than enough to keep me reading Hell blazer, and while I was a little let down by Justice League Dark, I might pick it up again for Constantine if no other reason. The same goes for the Swampthing title. I might pick it up again for Alec Holland, but if it doesn’t get better I won’t keep buying.

Anyway, that’s my two cents.



Lynette Cowper says:

So, I went and looked and, guess what, Catwoman has a FACE in almost all of the pictures I found! You know, unlike the first two pages that INTRODUCED THE CHARACTER. Facelessness is one of the most objectifying things you can do with a portrayal of a person. And DC did it for two whole pages. It’s not about the costumes and if you’d read the post and the post this is a response to, you would know that.



NorthernThoughts says:

So she has a face but is in very revealing clothing, if that at all. Oh yes, truly, this is what really matters. Let’s forget the massive amounts of cleavage, as well as nudity, what really matters is that her face is shown. Are you kidding me? Quick question, have you ever read a comic book? How about seeing some of the splash pages? The swimsuits, lingerie, and nudity (mostly suggested), to you is irrelevant because at least then we see the face? Nothing offensive about that kind of sexualization right?

You don’t know what you’re talking about, and are clearly obsessed with a meaningless point. Pathetic…



Firstly. I’m a guy. Secondly: You’re being blatantly ignorant to her.

“Throughout decades of comic book lore we have seen suggested nudity, even full blown nudity (like in the earlier Spectre comics), along with character driven stories that revolve around sex. What really irks me is that a twit like you would single out two of the MOST SEXUALIZED characters in DC Comics and complain about DC’s sexual portrayal.”

Name calling gets you nowhere fast, and dramatically disengages the integrity of your argument. Stop there.

Sexualized characters in DC comics or not, it’s still not right. That’s like arguing, “Adults have been having sex with children for decades – get used to it.” Just because it happens, it doesn’t make it right. As for costumes and all – regardless if it’s been around for fifty years, or one week, it’s still hyper-sexualized and not right.

“And here I though[t] conservatives, myself included, were supposed to be the sexual prudes.”

Don’t generalize yourself, like how you’re doing to her.

“If you’re looking to score some points with feminists, educate yourself first on the subject of your posts. Pathetic…”

No points awarded.

“And you don’t think the costumes for decades hasn’t been cheap pandering? You think Starfire’s origin story, with the emphasis on torture and rape wasn’t cheap pandeirng?”

With that logic, you may as well argue that murder is cheap pandering. She didn’t say rape was cheap pandering at all. Don’t put words in someone else’s mouth when it’s blatantly not there. Read before you make such ridiculous comments.

“You don’t think Catwoman’s skin tight 90s cotume, which was almost always torn up at the end of a comic, wasn’t suggestive? And all this cheap pandering at the cost of female readers? I used to work in a comic store, and I can tell you that the VAST MAJORITY of those who came in were male. If you’re too obtuse not to see the forest for the trees, you clearly are a twit.”

So naturally, because the audience is male, it’s okay for degradation of women? Are you seeing what you’re saying? That’s like saying, “The majority of people who listen to heavy metal accept murdering people.” Yeah. That doesn’t make sense to me, either.

“Your ignorance, along with the ignorance of others who wrote posts on the same topic as you is dumbfounding. I mean, did you or did you not bother doing your research? Have you or have you not bothered to pick up a comic in the last ten, if not twenty years.”

Research? Did you miss the whole “Women’s Rights” movement? Do you not see that both men and women are over-sexualized in the markets? It’s wrong. Regardless of how long it has gone on for, it doesn’t make sexualized women “okay” as you are presuming.

“You write this post as if Bruce Wayne didn’t have a love child with Talia al’Ghul, or Choi wasn’t sleeping with both male and female members of the Outsiders, or Justice League members weren’t sharing their sex stories from years gone by with former teammates, etc Aside from Roy Harper using drugs, when they weren’t fighting crime, from what’s been implied over the years, the Teen Titans were behaving like hormone-driven teens.”

Off-topic, but okay. You’re missing what she said in the original blog.

“Touched a nerve eh? Don’t like being called out? I’ll say it again, feminist hypocrite.”

You’re not making any sense by this point.

“So you’ve never written about it before because it would take up too much time, but you do so now? Why? Because its the popular thing to do? So one ignorant feminist makes a comment about these two comics and you feel the need to join in? Pathetic…”

Wait, what? You need to have published essays to have opinions nowadays?

“As for sexist, what did I say that was sexist?”
Uh. . .
“If you’re looking to score some points with feminists, educate yourself first on the subject of your posts”
“I used to work in a comic store, and I can tell you that the VAST MAJORITY of those who came in were male. If you’re too obtuse not to see the forest for the trees, you clearly are a twit.”
“I’m guessing this sexism is par for the course with feminist hypocrites like you right?”

And to top it all off, you’re okay with women be subjugated as sexual objects. Coolbeans.

“It’s because I’m male and dared to question you eh?”

Oh, there’s another sexist comment.

“No, that’s obviously too intelligent for someone looking to score cheap feminist points with an ignorant post like this.”

Sexist, AND insulting. Two for one!

Whoa, wait a tic. Did I read:

“As for a mature discussion, why not start with comic book reflecting popular culture, and with the society becoming more and more sexualized, we begin to see this more and more in comics”

WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS WAS ALL ABOUT?!?!?!

GAH!



NorthernThoughts says:

And yet another twit demonstrates poor cognitive skills. I don’t care if you’re a guy, since that means nothing to the context of this conversation.

Point #1 – I called her a twit because she demonstrated sheer ignorance on this subject, so much so that it’s offensive to me as a fan of both characters. Once again, Starfire and Catwoman are two of the most sexualized characters in DC Comics, and you act as if this sexualization started with the last comic. You don’t like it? DON’T READ IT! That doesn’t make it right or wrong either. It’s your personal preference.

Point #2 – She makes mention to the fact that she doesn’t consider herself a prude within her own post. Did you not read what she wrote? As for making generalizations, like stereotypes, there is some truth to common generalizations. Conservatives, generally, are for more prudish when it comes to sexuality. That’s not an insult to us, it’s a compliment.

Point #3 – No points awarded? Excuse me, but this whole post was a populist feminist puff piece, one which she wrote to prove her feminist credentials on this subject. Are you too stupid to see that? Oh, I forgot, you wrote this ridiculous reply to my comments, so it’s clear that you are.

Point #4 – Another example of your ability to understand even the most basic things. Ms. Snarky said that these two comics were blatant examples of cheap pandering of sexuality, and because they were so blatant, she decided to write this ignorant post. My point was that the same could be said about Starfire’s origin story. As for you comment on murder, either you completely missed the point about this being pandering of sexuality, or you’re somehow turned on by murder. Pathetic…

Point #5 – Again with murdering. Are you obsessed? As for the degradation of women, some view it as degrading, some view it as empowering. Catwoman in particular is viewed as a symbol of female sexual empowerment. Do you even bother thinking before replying?

Point #6 – Did I miss the whole women’s rights movement? What does that have to do with sexual pandering in comic books? Oh right, women took to the street to protest Catwoman’s outfits because it denied them equality within society right? Huh? The two aren’t even related you twit. Once again, do you even bother thinking before replying?

Point #7 – Missing what she said? Have you read those comics? There’s sexual pandering. DC Comics has been pushing sex and sexuality for years, as I made clear with the examples I raised. If Ms. Snarky is as offended by these examples as she claims to be, why has she never written about any of these examples? Do you not understand that?

Point #8 – She called me sexist because all called her out for her fake feminist outrage. You weren’t paying attention were you?

Point #9 – I’m questioning her motives for writing this post. Once again, you’re not paying attention.

Point #10 – Comics subjugate women? And because I read comics from time to time, I also subjugate women? This is ridiculous, but it’s what I’ve come to expect from feminists who are too busy tilting at windmills to bother with real issues like the treatment of women in the Middle East.

Point #11 – She judged me because of my gender and called me sexist, which is what I was calling her out on. She also accused me of attacking her BECAUSE she was a member of the fairer sex. Obviously you can’t see that and since I’m the male, it must be my fault right? At this point I’m just going to say it; you’re a disgrace to your gender and it’s pretty clear you need to grow a pair.

Point #12 – How is that sexist? If the basis for her argument is that, as a feminist, she’s offended by the sexual pandering found in these comics, why am I not allowed to challenge that. Once again, you’re a disgrace to your gender and you need to grow a pair.

Point #13 – It’s clearly to me that this post wasn’t a thoughtful examination of the sexualization of comics being a reflection of society. It was simply a thoughtless knee-jerk reaction to the content of two comic books.

If you lack the ability to come up with a thoughtful reply, don’t bother wasting my time. You’re just another beta male faking outrage to prove himself to a woman he’s never met. That’s pathetic…



“And yet another twit demonstrates poor cognitive skills.”

What did I say earlier about insulting people?

“Point #1 – I called her a twit because she demonstrated sheer ignorance on this subject, so much so that it’s offensive to me as a fan of both characters. Once again, Starfire and Catwoman are two of the most sexualized characters in DC Comics, and you act as if this sexualization started with the last comic. You don’t like it? DON’T READ IT! That doesn’t make it right or wrong either. It’s your personal preference.”

So, turn a blind eye to something that’s wrong? Atta boy. Wait: “That doesn’t make it right or wrong either. It’s your personal preference.” So it’s your personal preference that it’s oversexualized? That’s fine. The problem is that it IS there. But if it’s my personal preference to say, oh, beat up kids in a school yard, I suppose that’s okay. Just don’t look at it. It’s my personal preference after all.

“Point #2 – She makes mention to the fact that she doesn’t consider herself a prude within her own post. Did you not read what she wrote? As for making generalizations, like stereotypes, there is some truth to common generalizations. Conservatives, generally, are for more prudish when it comes to sexuality. That’s not an insult to us, it’s a compliment.”

Absolutely there are generalizations in the post. That doesn’t make one a prude though. Why someone is conservative has no meaning in this discussion, nor does being conservative make one a prude. That’s just ridiculous.

“Point #3 – No points awarded? Excuse me, but this whole post was a populist feminist puff piece, one which she wrote to prove her feminist credentials on this subject. Are you too stupid to see that? Oh, I forgot, you wrote this ridiculous reply to my comments, so it’s clear that you are.”

You don’t need credentials to write an opinion. I’m a guy and I’m a feminist. The term doesn’t apply to “twits” and “prudes,” y’know. And there’s no need to call people stupid. It still comes off as entirely ignorant and devalues your postings.

“Are you too stupid to see that? Oh, I forgot, you wrote this ridiculous reply to my comments, so it’s clear that you are.” Attention: Everyone. You’re stupid if you reply to someone else’s comments who has an opposite opinion as you.

“Point #4 – Another example of your ability to understand even the most basic things.”

Now, now.

“Ms. Snarky said that these two comics were blatant examples of cheap pandering of sexuality, and because they were so blatant,”

Yes.

“she decided to write this ignorant post.”

Oh?

“My point was that the same could be said about Starfire’s origin story. As for you comment on murder, either you completely missed the point about this being pandering of sexuality, or you’re somehow turned on by murder. Pathetic…”

Not pathetic – it makes me a prudish conservative! “you completely missed the point about this being pandering of sexuality” – I think you’re the one missing the point – as the majority of the comments here are opposite to what you argue – which is fine. Insulting someone because of it is not. Actually, you said this earlier, “ou don’t like it? DON’T READ IT!” Given that’s true about this topic. . . bye.

“Point #5 – Again with murdering. Are you obsessed? As for the degradation of women, some view it as degrading, some view it as empowering.”

Murder is my extreme example. I suppose I have some skeletons in my closet. . .

Where on Earth is “empowering” defined as “hyper-sexualized women solely to appease a men’s market?” I mean, you understand that these women are sexualized and argued that the status quo of comics is mostly men.

Where I see the issue is that you’re getting sexuality confused with empowerment. I’ve written on some topics about the portrayal of women in comics, so by all means, read these opinions and we can continue our conversation.

http://uncannyderek.com/2010/10/17/women-in-comics/

http://uncannyderek.com/2010/11/14/body-image-in-comics/

http://uncannyderek.com/2011/04/21/comic-animation-and-boobs-taking-women-back-50-years/

“Catwoman in particular is viewed as a symbol of female sexual empowerment. Do you even bother thinking before replying?”

Did you read her blog? It was about Catwoman and her not being used as empowering. . .

Point #6 – Did I miss the whole women’s rights movement? What does that have to do with sexual pandering in comic books?”

Wow. Okay, I’m done. Just a few more short points.

“Point #10 – Comics subjugate women? And because I read comics from time to time, I also subjugate women? This is ridiculous, but it’s what I’ve come to expect from feminists who are too busy tilting at windmills to bother with real issues like the treatment of women in the Middle East.”

No one said you did.

“Point #11 – She judged me because of my gender and called me sexist, which is what I was calling her out on.”

You are.

“Obviously you can’t see that and since I’m the male, it must be my fault right?”

Clearly.

“At this point I’m just going to say it; you’re a disgrace to your gender and it’s pretty clear you need to grow a pair.”

Atta boy. You’re looking great.

“Point #12 – How is that sexist? If the basis for her argument is that, as a feminist, she’s offended by the sexual pandering found in these comics, why am I not allowed to challenge that. Once again, you’re a disgrace to your gender and you need to grow a pair.”

You can challenge it. But you’re insulting.

“Point #13 – It’s clearly to me that this post wasn’t a thoughtful examination of the sexualization of comics being a reflection of society. It was simply a thoughtless knee-jerk reaction to the content of two comic books.”

If you read my opinions on my website and see it’s not just in these two books. If she wanted, she could’ve gone on about millions of comics – but she stuck to two.

“If you lack the ability to come up with a thoughtful reply, don’t bother wasting my time. You’re just another beta male faking outrage to prove himself to a woman he’s never met. That’s pathetic…”

And how!



Zander says:

From what I can see, you seem to be misinterpreting what the blog post was about. You’re speaking in terms of what DC has done with the character over the years. The New 52 reboot is just that: a canon startover. They’re erasing characters and adding new ones and, in some cases, completely rewriting a character’s history. This is a chance for DC to have a new beginning. Of course characters are going to come with baggage. People expect something from Batman, from Superman, from Catwoman.

That said, thanks to a large amount of history, neither Starfire nor Catwoman are simply there to be sexual. Of course some characters are more sexual than others, but that part of them shouldn’t come in expense of a well-rounded characterization. Maybe that will come in later comics, but the New 52 reboot was supposed to be about garnering a wider audience. It was supposed to be about creating something fresh and so each comic has its own first impression.

My first impression of Starfire? I don’t have any sense of her as a character. She seems to be a brainless attachment for the two men of the series.

My first impression of Catwoman? Marginally better. We are at least given a glimpse into her personality before being left with the final impression of wondering whether this comic is about her or about her relationship with Batman.

Neither comic left me with much of a sense of where the comic was going or with any real reason to be attracted to the characters other than through knowing them from from their pre-reboot comics. If I were a new reader to DC comics, I would definitely have no reason to continue reading this comics.



NorthernThoughts says:

You’re wrong, Have you or have you not read Flashpoint? Do you even know the basis for this minor reboot? The basic plot is that Professor Zoom has gone back in time and made small changes to Earth’s history to reshape the world and the heroes that inhabit it. From there, Barry Allen himself tries to undo the damage to the timeline that Zoom did, bringing things back to as close as normal as he can. The audience understands that the changes are themselves very minor, as demonstrated with Barry’s post-crisis discussion with Bruce Wayne where he gives Bruce the letter his father wrote him (in Zoom’s timeline, Bruce had died and Thomas Wayne became Batman).

Simply put, that isn’t a new start, it’s a minor reboot. This is why we see many storylines continuing like Damian Wayne’s role as Robin and Batman Inc. Sure some histories have changed, some costumes adjusted, but that’s it. What’s the point in reinventing these characters when they have such a long and established history? Major reboots, like Crisis of Infinite Earths, which actually saw a massive recon of DC continuity (the end of the Silver Age and beginning of the modern age) are very difficult for fans to accept, if not difficult to write. For example, DC spent twenty years trying to rewrite Power Girl before simply accept that she was a Kryptonian from another timeline (as stated in Infinite Crisis). This was a new coat of paint, and we see that in the new costumes for DC’s main characters.

Here’s the thing, I have been ACTUALLY following comics for most of my life. Not always reading them, but I spend a fair bit of time on comic sites researching various changes to my favourite characters and comic continuity. If you’re going to debate me on such points, you better know what you’re talking about.



“Simply put, that isn’t a new start, it’s a minor reboot. This is why we see many storylines continuing like Damian Wayne’s role as Robin and Batman Inc. Sure some histories have changed, some costumes adjusted, but that’s it. What’s the point in reinventing these characters when they have such a long and established history? Major reboots, like Crisis of Infinite Earths, which actually saw a massive recon of DC continuity (the end of the Silver Age and beginning of the modern age) are very difficult for fans to accept, if not difficult to write. For example, DC spent twenty years trying to rewrite Power Girl before simply accept that she was a Kryptonian from another timeline (as stated in Infinite Crisis). This was a new coat of paint, and we see that in the new costumes for DC’s main characters.”

Actually no, you’re wrong. This is pretty much exactly like Crisis on Infinite Earths. Since you’ve obviously spent so much of your time “ACTUALLY following comics,” then you’d know that Crisis was not a complete and total reboot. A lot of things were changed — getting rid of the multiple Earths, merging the JSA and the JLA into the same history, rebooting a number of characters, such as Superman and Wonder Woman. But a lot of stuff was kept intact. Batman was not rebooted. The Teen Titans were not rebooted. Green Lantern was not rebooted. The Flash was not rebooted. In fact, the Flash even picked up from the events OF Crisis because Barry Allen died during Crisis and Wally took on the mantle of the Flash following that.

There are many things that have been rebooted in the New 52. Batman, Green Lantern and most of the Teen Titans are kept intact. A lot of other stuff has been rebooted — Superman, Wonder Woman, the Justice League, Green Arrow, Superboy, Supergirl, Wildstorm merged into the DCU — these are all reboots. It’s not just a costume change, it’s a reboot.

There was an event that altered reality. A lot of things changed but some didn’t. That’s exactly what happened with Crisis. That’s exactly what happened with Flashpoint.



Zander says:

“There was an event that altered reality. A lot of things changed but some didn’t. That’s exactly what happened with Crisis. That’s exactly what happened with Flashpoint.”

Thank you. You just made my point for me. What’s so different about this is not what happened in the comics themselves, but how DC is portraying it to the fans. In fact, ‘reboot’ is, according to them, the wrong word.

“* Why not call it a reboot?

It’s not a reboot. A reboot is typically a restart of the story or character that jettisons away everything that happened previously.

This is a new beginning which builds off the best of the past. For the stories launching as new #1s in September, we have carefully hand-selected the most powerful and pertinent moments in these characters’ lives and stories to remain in the mythology and lore. And then we’ve asked the best creators in the industry to modernize, update and enhance the books with new and exciting tales. The result is that we retained the good stuff, and then make it better.”

Simply put, no matter how much or how little canon they’ve taken, this was supposed to be a beginning. The renumbering of the titles was supposed to give readers a new entry point. Some comics, like the Legion arcs, failed because they made no sense to new or old readers. To me, Catwoman and Red Hood failed because they didn’t make me care about the characters. I had no investment in their new incarnation. Roy and Jason are ‘studs’ and Kori is a ditz. Catwoman has the semblence of a personality, but that seems to take second fiddle to her relationship with Batman. I didn’t particularly care about the art except how it could have been done in fewer pages in an ability to give Catwoman a little more than just ‘run, run, destruction, run, seek help, sleep with Batman’.



NorthernThoughts says:

@Percival Constantine No, you’re wrong. Infinite Crisis was massive merging of worlds, as well as drastic rewrites. Though Flashpoint brought in Wildstorm and Vertigo characters, you don’t see the same massive rewrite that we saw with Crisis of Infinite Earths. The previous reboot demanded a massive rewriting of major characters, including a slew of thorough reboots like John Byrne’s Superman. What we see with Flashpoint is a continuation of storylines with slight revisions in canon to a handful of characters. For example, the introduction of the Marvel family demanded a full reboot of that franchise for DC Comic readers. Same goes with the death of nearly the entire Silver Age roster of DC heroes, the disappearance of others (Earth-2 Superman), rewriting the Justice Society, which became one part legacy, one part travelers from another dimension.

You don’t see this massive shift in direction or in history. Much of this is cosmetic, which is one of the key criticisms of Flashpoint because of the hype for it. DC in this regard failed to deliver or what they said would be a massive upheaval of the DCU. The truth is that this revision was done for marketing purposes. What has really changed besides the costumes? The Wildstorm and Vertigo merger? There have been a number of crossovers in the past concerning these characters, so adopting them into the mainstream is simply a matter of convenience. Slight revisions in origins? There are always constant correcting in comic books. Marvel, for example, does this regularly, rewriting origins to and first meetings to meet the needs of a particular story.

Once again, this is, at most, a minor crisis, NOT a reboot. All arguments based on the idea that this is a massive upheaval of the DCU are utterly flawed because of this.



“Let’s begin with Starfire okay? Have you not noticed her outfit since she was introduced in 1982? She might as well be wearing a swimsuit with how much skin is showing. Or how about how she learned English? The first kiss of many Dick Grayson has received in his long time on and off relationship with her. Let’s go even further back though, into her story. Prior to coming to Earth, she was captured, tortured and raped by the Citadel, one of Tamaran’s enemies. After coming to Earth, she and Dick had a long and physical relationship. From time to time, they even hook up, but lately they’ve grown apart. Fast forward to the Teen Titans animated series, and this whole history, as well as her entire sexuality is stripped from her for a more child-friendly persona. So it’s DC Comics’ fault for returning to the more established sexual Starfire?”

There’s nothing wrong with a sexual Starfire, there’s something wrong with a Starfire who is defined SOLELY by her sexuality. And this new Starfire is completely different from the Starfire that appeared in Teen Titans. Take a look at Kori’s dialogue in this image: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.comicsalliance.com/media/2011/09/tumblrlrvyo4a6oi1qdbn8fo1500.jpg

I’ll even quote it to make it easier on you: “On my world we allow ourselves to love many people…ALWAYS EMOTIONALLY…SOMETIMES PHYSICALLY. But here, well, things are so different…We all have so much to give each other, it’s WRONG TO WITHHOLD YOUR FEELINGS.”

Compare that now to what she said to Roy when he asks if there’s anything he needs to know about making love to a Tamaranean. She responds with, “only that love has nothing to do with it.”

That’s a complete 180 from her portrayal in the past. Starfire has gone from being a very emotional, passionate character with a strong sense of love and commitment to someone who thinks of humans as little more than passing scents, who can’t even remember her closest friends and lover, who is completely void of emotion and only interested in sex as something to pass the time.

Just because sex is involved does not make them the same things. For someone who likes going around insulting the intelligence of others, you somehow have a difficult time grasping this.

“As for Catwoman, have you or have you not looked at Adam Hughes’ more recent, pre-Flashpoint cover art? Have you or have you not been following her and Bruce Wayne’s relationship since Hush? How about her suggestive outfits over the years, like the purple skin tight one during the 90s? You complain about the tight leather, but that costume has been around for a few years now, even being used by Midway in Mortal Kombat versus DC Universe, so pardon me if I don’t think your offense to this is sincere. Simply put, you act as if DC hadn’t stuck with Frank Miller’s Batman: Year One’s depiction of Catwoman as a former prostitute turned jewel thief. That goes back to 1987, so just how long have you been reading Catwoman? I’m guessing you remember watching Batman: The Animated Series and pretended that Catwoman in the mainstream comic continuity was the exact same eh?”

There is a world of difference between cheesecake art and sexual objectification. The complaint wasn’t about Catwoman’s costume, it was about the fact that throughout the entire comic, there is more focus put on Catwoman’s ass, tits and crotch, more focus put on her being half-naked, than there is focus on her as a character. We go three pages seeing close-up shots of her tits and ass while half-naked before we even see her face.

And just because the Frank Miller origin was back in 1987 doesn’t make it any less stupid. It was stupid for him to turn her into a prostitute, which he did for no other reason than in the Millerverse, there’s no such thing as a woman who’s not a prostitute.

“What I find really pathetic about all this is that all the complaints about this are from those who are or are mostly likely left-of-center in their political views. And here I though conservatives, myself included, were supposed to be the sexual prudes.”

Big surprise, a conservative who has no problem with the objectification of women… And again, you’re confusing sexuality with objectification. They are not the same thing.

“this is definitely NOT something that has changed drastically, if at all from previous continuity.”

Yes it is. I just proved it.

“If you’re looking to score some points with feminists, educate yourself first on the subject of your posts. Pathetic…”

I think you should educate yourself on the topic first, since you obviously don’t get it. The problem isn’t sexuality, it’s objectification. Women like sex just as much as men do. Women are sexual creatures, the same as men are. But women are not defined exclusively by sex. That’s what’s happening in these books — the defining characteristic of these women is “they fuck a lot.” Contrast that to the defining characteristics of the men. If you still can’t see a problem, then you’ve clearly got issues.



NorthernThoughts says:

Clearly you don’t know what you’re talking about, and yes I have read the text in the offending scenes. Starfire’s affection for Dick Grayson doesn’t mean that her people aren’t sexual. You’re confusing her longtime affection for Dick with how her race as a whole behaves. After Dick took up the mantle of Batman following Battle for the Cowl, it was clear to her that what the of them had was gone. Considering that she was committed to this relationship for years, that would come as an incredible shock. Can you see why she would want sex without strings attached? Once again, going back to her origins, her attire since she was introduced in 1982 has been very provocative. As well, let’s not forget how her race learns new languages. You don’t think a species that uses intimate contact to gain knowledge isn’t sexual?

As for your comments on Catwoman, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Bob Kane created her as a sexually empowering figure, and even before Frank Miller’s reconing of her origins, we see Selina Kyle relying on her femininity when dealing with Batman. Miller simply provided a believable back story for a character who herself is fetishistic. Have you not notice the skin-tight clothing? The whip? Her character practically SCREAMS sexuality, and yet you and the rest of the easily offending start complaining that she is being sexualized.

As for your political comments, last time I checked, conservatives actually let a woman express themselves without having to sexualize her or demand she have certain political views. For example, the attacks we’ve seen on Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann by the left is nothing short of misogyny. Once again, you demonstrate an utter lack of knowledge on something you pretend to know something about. As for objectification versus sexualization, you’re splitting hairs. A woman as a possession versus a woman as a sexual possession. The fact that you spend time trying to define this demonstrates ignorance of the situation, as well as desperation to prove your intelligence.

If anyone’s got issues it’s you. A pathetic beta male who’s outraged that a comic book company would market itself to you by trying to pander to your obviously underdeveloped sexual side. You’re such a pathetic tool…



Clearly you haven’t read a single word I’ve written because you completely ignored all of it. And I’m not going to turn this into a political debate, but people don’t attack Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann because they’re strong, empowering women. People attack Palin and Bachmann for the same reason they attacked Bush — they are dumb as rocks.

Go back, read what I actually said, and then we can have a discussion. Until then, all you’re doing is completely ignoring everything that doesn’t fit into your narrow little box. I’ve no time for misogynistic little trolls.



NorthernThoughts says:

@Percival Constantine No no, I did read what you said, and it’s pretty stupid. You accuse me of being misogynistic, among other things, and provide no proof, then you make some ignorant comment about the women’s rights movement and how it somehow relates to this…

Sorry, but no. You’re too dumb to waste anymore time with. You say things that you think sound smart, but they’re not. Then you make this stupid political comment about Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann being dumb like former President George W. Bush, a man who graduate with an MBA from Yale I might add. Far smarter than the man in the White House now, Mr. 57 States, Navy Corpsemen, Fallen soldiers I see here today, billionaires getting the jew, janitor tax rate, etc And to top things off, your profile picture… Have problems smiling? How about going outside and getting a tan? Let me guess, all your friends thought it was really cool so you stuck with it right?

So, NO!, I’m not going to be wasting anymore time with a creepy-looking beta male who can’t comprehend the the history of these character he pretends to know so much about. Your opinions can’t be substituted for facts no matter how many times you repeat them. Starfire has ALWAYS been a sexual creature, Catwoman is the very much the same, a fact highlighted by every aspect of her character. The the cat disguise, the whip, high heels and even the Bob Kane’s choice of black hair for Selina Kyle all point to one thing, and it isn’t some child-friendly character who’s afraid of flaunting her femininity.

As Allison Keyes wrote for NPR back in 2008, “Catwoman ranks No. 51 on the 100 Greatest Villains of All Time list from Wizard Magazine. And no wonder: Her hisses — and purrs — have made her a symbol of feminine power.”
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88203149



NorthernThoughts says:

@Percival Constantine P.S. Aside from the link I posted earlier about the massive boost in sales DC is getting thanks to the new 52, here something for you and Ms. Snarky from Eric Canete, the man who put together the sexy Batman/Catwoman scene.
http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2011/09/eric-canete-responds-to-catwoman-sex-scene-with-post-coital-comic/

And if you bother reading the comments of those at CBR, they tend to agree more with me on this than you. Just saying to remind you how out of touch you are on this…



FlyByNight says:

Phew. Impressive troll job.

(Let me guess, I’m an ignorant twit who knows nothing about the actual history of trolling?)



NorthernThoughts says:

Of course, but you already knew that. Oh, and, NO, I’m not trolling. I made the mistake of clicking the box for getting e-mail updates for replies to my comment. I wake up this morning to find my inbox flooded with comments by twits like you who are offended that I dared to point out the obvious about sexual pandering in comic books.



FlyByNight says:

Ayup, thought so. You’re trolling.



Anise says:

Don’t feed the troll. Eventually he will starve and go away to find juicier morsels elsewhere.



Dude, chill out. You’re focusing on the visuals way too much.

The problem isn’t the sexual innuendo or the skimpy costumes. It’s the fact that they’ve gone from being INCIDENTAL to the plot to BEING the plot.

Adam Hughes’ covers have a playful aesthetic to them. They’re cute.

And as for “Mortal Kombat”, I thought the costumes for most of the female characters were beyond ridiculous. There’s a difference between being dressed provocatively and being dressed like a stripper or a whore. And it’s annoying that Sonya Blade’s costume makes her look like either one.



Well said. If there’s one good thing to come out of this whole situation, it’s been the powerful, intelligent, and passionate rejection of it from concerned fans and commentators. Some of the best articles and blogs I’ve ever read about comics and the culture have been in the last week.

Even aside from the obvious degradation and objectification of the female characters in “Red Hood” and “Catwoman,” I found myself offended because they were just so DUMB. They were insulting to me as a male reader, if only because they were such obvious pandering at the expense of everything else. The assumption that as a male fanboy comic reader, I could only possibly want these obnoxious women taking up space in my comic books if they’re posing and propositioning, and nothing else, in every panel they’re in.

If DC wants to create comics with sexy women that men and boys will like to look at, that’s their prerogative. But I never understood the assumption that to accomplish that, everything else has to be abandoned. Anyone whose only motivation for buying “Red Hood and the Outlaws” is because they think Starfire is hot is probably going to keep buying it to ogle her even if she has a personality and a function in the plot. Pretty sure the costume by itself is going to keep them coming back.

Arousing an adolescent boy is hardly a challenge of monumental proportions. Making a woman sexy does not mean she cannot have features beyond “sexy.” Ed Brubaker hardly wrote Catwoman as a nun, and Darwyn Cooke certainly didn’t draw her in the superhero equivalent of a hijab and a burka. Starfire has never been a modest dresser, and from the beginning has been written as openly polyamorous. And yet it was still possible to tell entertaining stories about them that appealed to men (and even, gasp, WOMEN!) where they were cool, competent, and had honest-to-goodness motivation beyond flashing their goods and getting passed around for sex.

And honestly, I’m never more ashamed to be a comic fan or a male than when I see people who act like a comic that contradicts something that happened in another comic from 40 years ago act lie the active and acute objectification of women is a non-issue, and even sometimes rush to defend it if only because “that’s how it is.”



It is insulting to men to insinuate that’s all they’re capable of handling in a comic. It’s saying that all men want is watered down porn and actual characterization and plot will be too much for them to be able to enjoy.

I’m fine with sexy characters, but this isn’t even sexy. It’s creepy.

From what I’ve seen here, you have no reason to be ashamed on behalf of the idiots. You’re clearly an intelligent fan who knows how to respect others.



Kenny Cather says:

This was wonderfully well written. I’m a man and I’ve been upset for the same reasons but I haven’t been able to express my frustrations this well. I’ve been told by women I’ve expressed my unhappiness to, “But you’re a guy, isn’t this what you want?” No, I want my fiction to have characters, not you really hit the nail on the head. Thank you.



Thanks. I would imagine there’s a lot of guys who wouldn’t want this. If you’ve got any maturity at all, this sort of thing isn’t even sexy. I know plenty of guys who read because they want to see actual characters involved in actual plots.



Lou Mo says:

The Comic, and the pulp from which it is born were for and by Men. That YOU love it is an anomaly. Do you suspect the vast majority of women don’t read comics because they’ve NEVER been written for women? Do you truly expect the genre to be re-written for women? Let’s try that and watch its spectacular failure… oh wait we DID try than and NO ONE bought it.

Accept you’re different and wading into a different pool. Don’t expect everyone else to don a top because you’re there, and don’t take your off to fit in, just enjoy the water.



Well, comics have, in fact, been written for women for as long as they’ve been written “for men,” and they have, in the past been very successful. Also, if you’d actually read what I wrote, you would see that I didn’t say comics should be re-written. I even specifically stated that I don’t think they need to be changed to they should be “for women.” I said that they need to realize we live in the Twenty-First Century, and being actively sexist is not cool. I like comics being comics. I don’t like them being taken to the level of pandering — in a large part because it makes them bad. I’d like to read a good comic, not something that panders to people like you.

The fact that you can’t look around you and see that we live in a time when women can be equal to men makes you a throwback.

Women who like comics aren’t an “anomaly.” There’s no reason to be so threatened by them.



Lou Mo says:

Women who like comics ARE an anomoly. Go to Comicon. Women represent 52% of the planet and 15% of Comicon and 80% of them are dressed like Comic-whores. Look, I’m all for women, and I TRULY am happen to find women who enjoy “geekism” but the fact is this stuff is conceived, written and executed for Men. No one is suggesting women shouldn’t be involved, or have a say in the production of this form/genre but on some level you have to understand this is a man’s game. No one suggests we should maternalize Football and no one wants to paternalize bodice rippers.

As for women being equal to men, as a Man who runs an IT department of 20 with 15 women, I’m a little taken aback but not remotely surprised by your response. I’m not threatened by women in any way, I am, however, aware that there are gender lines that will be crossed but that in no way means they will be compromised.



You continue to miss the point. Calling women “comic whores” says a lot more about you than how many women you work with.



Lou Mo says:

I hired them because they were better suited to the positions….

I’m sorry what do YOU call the girl in the silver bikini with thigh high boots and a sash who insists she’s Rogue?

I think you came to this conversation with a lot of baggage, and it IS your blog, so you can, but some people are going to call you out on it. I’m some of those people.



I wouldn’t belittle them and call them whores. And if it’s okay for Starfire to be that way because hey, that’s just comics, then why are those women whores?

I don’t have baggage. I am, however, sick of being told I should shut up and accept that objectification is the status quo. Especially by people who can’t even be bothered to fully read what they’re commenting on.

Go bother some else.



Lou Mo says:

done



Anise says:

You know, if all women just accepted that all the industries traditionally run by men were simply a “man’s game”, we wouldn’t be doing anything. We also don’t want comics rewritten by men with what they think women will like, because clearly the brilliant masterminds at DC don’t have a clue.

Women like what men like, a good story with compelling characters, themes, art and pacing. A character who is determined by her bra size is not a character, she’s an object for the male gaze.

Comics are also comprised of more than just the attendance at Comic Con. I table at Comic Con and have gone for years as an artist behind a booth. I would go so far as to say a huge chunk of comic con’s demographics aren’t even comic fans, they’re there for the stars, the movies and the announcements. How about another comic convention like APE, TCAF, Stumptown, Mocca, NYCC, or Wondercon? I see equal numbers of men and women constantly, and women love buying, reading and supporting comics.

If DC isn’t going to provide, other people will. I will happily take all of their lost revenue when their readership is looking for a comic fix and comes my way for some good stuff. Jeph Jacques, Ryan North, KC Green, the guys at Penny Arcade, Meridith Gran, Scott Kurtz, Ryan Sohmer and so many other webcomic heavyweights are already doing just that.

So go ahead, keep the boy’s club. The rest of the world will accept that “it’s a man’s game” (i.e. a sinking ship) and move on to something better. Comic readership is up… but the big two’s profits are down… but it’s okay, it’s a man’s game. They clearly know what they’re doing.



Lou Mo says:

(why is auto correct helping me on your WordPress bog and how do I make it stop?)



I did not know that time machines where real, why did someone bring a guy from the 50ies here?
He will only be scared that we actually consider woman -GASP- human beings now! Like just as good as men, I know it is hard to believe for someone like you, but you dont you renember that suffrage thing?
That actually went somewhere and you know, woman can vote and all sort of neat things now. If you ever travel back to your own time you should maybe consider locking yourself in a bombshelter when you get to the 60ies and 70ies, those will be hard times for you. Just a freindly warning.



hariman says:

I’m a guy. I’m almost 30. I read manga and comics. Although I don’t read them as much as I might like lately.

And I think that the objectification of Catwoman and Starfire during the reboot is both shameful, idiotic and disgusting. So you’re not alone. There are those of us out there who get it.

Hopefully, DC listens to the complaints and writes their way out of the adolescent idiocy they let past quality control.

Personally, I’ve been leaning more and more toward webcomics as my favorite medium for comic style entertainment. The writer/artists who put their comics online often put more effort into them than the professionals do.

It’s ironic that I’m already at the point where much more of my money is going to support my favorite webcomics than what I spend on mainstream comics.



Your response has mirrored a lot of the ones I’ve seen, and I can’t really say I’m surprised. The mainstream comics industry clearly knows flagging sales is a problem — there wouldn’t have been this reboot otherwise — they just haven’t seem to have figured out why.

Things like the new 52 are quick fixes without any staying power. They’re going to give a burst to sales to begin with (and that was always pretty much a given — new things get attention, and people check it out at least in the beginning to see what it’s all about) but I don’t think it’s going to push their sales numbers up long term. And certainly never on a par of something like the viewership of the Teen Titans.



Spitphyre says:

“I don’t even want women in comics to suddenly all have tiny breasts and wear baggy costumes. Because hey, the men have crazy muscles and tight costumes, too. Cheesecake and beefcake are both part of the aesthetic. ”

OMG YES!

I’m a girl and you know what? I LOVE that the girls are hot and sexy with curves and tight-form fitting costumes. I don’t care that they’re idealized bodies because the men have them too and I WANT that in a superhero comic. My problem? Is that the women in comics aren’t just idealized bodies. They become sex symbols that are created for heterosexual men and nothing else. As someone in a community I belong to said: “men in comics are idealized as what they (the company, the artist) think men want to be, while women in comics are idealized as the person they think men want to fuck” That? Is not fair!

Thank you for writing this, I feel like you’re speaking things with my voice (I haven’t been reading comics as long as you have BUT I have been into “geeky” and “male” things for the same amount of time) I’m sorry for the people who are telling you that you’re wrong. We both know that they’re the ones who are too blind and ignorant to see the world through the eyes of someone who isn’t themselves.

And for what it’s worth? DC isn’t treating all of their other girls very well either. BoP (my personal favorite title) might not have been as sexualized but they still took the ONLY all girl superhero group and made them operating on the wrong side of the law. They have still taken the cheesecake thing too far in many of their other titles, it’s not just Catwoman and The Red Hood, they were just the tipping point for a whole lotta crap.



I’ve gotten some responses asking why women are making such a big deal out of this now (like we’ve never, ever mentioned objectification in comics is a problem in the past), and I think “tipping point” is a good way to describe what’s happened. It’s not that it’s anything new, really, it’s just that it’s reached the point where enough is enough. DC set themselves up for this level of attention by hyping the New 52 the way they did, so all eyes were on them. And what we saw was a giant disappointment.

It’s the idea of who men want to be vs. who men want to fuck which really is the root of the issue. Idealized people make sense in a superhero comic. But it should be an equalized idealization — who men and women both want to be — as opposed to an idealization geared towards only one gender.



Allannon6666 says:

I just want to say that after reading about the relaunch of Catwoman and Starfire, I’m glad I didn’t pick up their books (and I’m a guy, btw). They’ve been two of my favorite female characters in the DCU for a long time and for different reasons. I was tempted to pick up both of their books because they sounded interesting (though I didn’t realize Starfire was in Redhood and the Outlaws), but I’m not willing to support such schlock. I can’t even begin to describe how utterly pissed I am about what DC has done to Starfire. They’ve turned her into a Playboy bunny when she was one of the strongest and most interesting characters DC had, not to mention what they’ve turned her race into. What DC has done isn’t “edgy” it is disgusting and annoying. Comic book fans as a whole (but especially the women) deserve better than this.



Allannon6666 says:

Of course, after reading some of the responses you’ve gotten, maybe I’m in the minority……



FlyByNight says:

I’ve been pleased to see the number of responses from guys who want to see women as real characters rather than just sex toys. From this and other conversations on this topic, the number of comments from guys who ‘get it’ appear to equal or outnumber the guys who don’t. In reality, that probably means that 8 guys out of 10 or better are on the ‘real characters, please’ side of the equation. That’s restoring my faith in humanity some. Now if only we could unseat the creepers that have gotten control of the comic industry, we’d be in really good shape.

You’re totally right, this kind of treatment insults the male readership too – “Here, we all know you like vapid bimbos with no use other than sex and blowing stuff up, so here you go!” Ugh.



You’re not in the minority, thankfully. There’s some very loud idiots out there who think their opinions have more weight than anyone else’s, but I’ve seen way more people — men and women — feel the way you do than how mouthbreathers like “Northern Thought” and his ilk feel.

“Edgy” too often in comics means taking things too far in a very bad direction. “Edgy” doesn’t have to mean offensive. If that’s the best you can manage, it’s because you’re a lazy writer, and that’s something both male and female readers will pick up on.



Great article an you nailed down everything that was wrong with these two books.

After reading Red Hood, I felt like taking a shower. I may be a young, straight male, I’m far from a prude, but this was not sexy. There’s nothing sexy about a dead-eyed, emotionless sexbot. It’s just freaking creepy.



It was creepy. I would assume, unless they’re dysfunctional, most people wouldn’t be overly turned on by someone’s who’s essentially a walking blow-up doll. For the majority, I would think at least some level of actual human interaction would be part of sex.



I have to say, I loved this, really got me thinking. I havent read comics in a long time, at least of the superhero variety, and its sad to hear the state of things. It kinda makes me sad for DC, I was never a big fan of their major heroes, but their Vertigo line was simply outstanding for the amount of mature and well written content that was put out under it… I know shes not a superhero per se, but my favorite character in comics is Gaimans Death, and how he used this dichotomy of a cute goth girl that happens to be the Grim Reaper. She acts flirty and cute but all done as aspects of her character, shes MEANT to be that way but the stories never descended into *shameless* sex, even with nudity depicted.

I really want to read a great comic about superheroes, but it seems as if the stories have devolved and become even more unimpressive. Im stuck going back and reading the graphic novels of many comics that arent around anymore and wrapped up, my two favorite series were the Sandman and Lucifer, and some of the Clairemont X-men arcs, but I havent been able to find anything new that gives me that same kind of satisfaction or… reflection, or even simple escapism thats well written. If anybody has any suggestions of some current comics that you think are leaning more towards the artistic side and showing what comics can be capable of, I’d love to hear them and check it out.



I’ve always separated Vertigo in my head from DC. I’ve read Vertigo off and on for a while, and I tend to like it a lot more than what I see in DC’s main line. Gaiman is someone who seems to realize that women aren’t just T&A and can depict characters that both men and women can enjoy reading. Probably because he’s someone who actually knows how to write.

Personally, I like Ed Brubaker’s work, especially what he’s done on Captain America, if you’re looking for superheroes. For stuff that’s not superhero-related, his book Criminal is a good one. I also like Marjorie Liu and her run on X-23. Kieron Gillen is currently doing good things with Generation Hope that remind me more of older X-Men stories than whatever’s been going on with this Utopia thing the X-Men do now. I also like Jason Aaron’s run on Wolverine and Christos Gage’s Avengers Academy. One that’s done now, but was a good superhero comic while they let it last was Jim McCann’s Hawkeye and Mockingbird.

There’s a lot of good superhero comics out there, but sometimes it can be kind of hard to sift through the mediocre and the just plain terrible.



Ironically, given the timing and all this, a friend just let me borrow Jeph Loebs Hush series, and I was blown away! I’d have to say it’s one of my favorite stories I’ve read in a long time. And seemed to have what everyone as of late is complaining is lacking in DC’s current crop; great characterization and depth among those characters. The relationship between Batman and Catwoman was believable, given the history and i felt myself actually caring what happened between the two, and the end… I felt a whole range of emotions by then, and admittedly some of the art IS fan fiction-y, T&A almost, but its all so lusciously colored and written with such respect and reverence for the material it works. Seems thats the problem lately, especially with the whole Starfire character and as illustrated in the great piece by Michele Lee, seems they’ve lost their way with the characters and the reverence for the source material thats needed to ensure that characters dont just undergo these radical changes with no explanation or reason that makes sense for the character, let alone a complete lack of one as well. And thanks for the suggestions, I wanna check out Generation Hope, and then Wolverine and X-23… thats one character I never learned much about, X-23, like you i grew up with the FOX animated series and branched out from there and have always been intrigued by her… on another note, has anyone done anything worthwhile with the Silver Surfer as of late? I always loved the originals and the way he was written



There was actually a pretty recent Silver Surfer mini by Greg Pak that I really enjoyed. It’s another one with actual plot and characterization. A lot of it is focused on the character in his non-Surfer form, but it’s done with understanding of the character and his back story, while still being a fresh look at the Silver Surfer. It’s already been collected in a trade, you can find it here: http://www.midtowncomics.com/store/dp.asp?PRID=Silver+Surfer+Devolution+_1142783



Thanks for the Surfer suggestion, I just ordered it lol I always liked how he goes from Norrin Radd to a cosmic being, seems like itd be much more of a strain than just becoming a mutant. So thats in the mail, as well as my Preacher collections i ordered and the Onslaught series… I feel so behind and dont have a clue as to where to start again, but thanks for the suggestions and I cant wait to read that Silver Surfer series :)



There’s so much out there, it can be hard to figure out where to pick back up again. Those are some good choices, though! :)



[...] A Response from a Female Comic Book Fan [...]



vhrico says:

Hi Ms. Snarky, great article. I think you covered everything that DC did wrong, and the arguments perfectly. One thing that I don’t think has been covered about this whole disaster is what effect it’s going to have on what we’ve already concluded is DC’s desired audience, teenage boys. Now they will be under the impression that this is the way that “empowered” women behave (even if they are fictional comic characters). It’s bad enough women have to deal with being overtly sexualized and objectified, told what to think and feel and deal with the guys that do this but now they have to deal with the teenage boys that will grow up to be the guys that will continue to do this. I don’t expect for you or demand that you cover this, I just wanted to bring it up because I think it’s also important.
Thanks God I don’t have kids and have to deal with this.



I’m hoping that most of the male population out there will have the sense to realize real women aren’t like this and that it’s better to have a partner than a sex doll. A lot of the men I’ve discussed this with seem to see this as more creepy than empowering, and that gives me hope that it’s not the majority of men who want this sort of thing in a woman.



TSpeaks says:

I realize that you have plenty of comments already, but I really feel compelled to give you whatever the female equivalent of “bro nod” is on the internet. Your childhood sounds very much like mine, right down to the favorite characters, Happy Meal disappointments and comic store experiences. I already knew from my circle of friends that I’m not alone, but it’s still comforting in a way to hear your own feelings reflected by strangers you never met in parts of the world you’ve never been to.

The only difference is likely my sexuality (which was at least in part developed by these skewed depictions of women, since I was certainly interested during those formative years), which leaves me in an uncomfortable place when confronted by portrayals like this, and – more notably – the defense of those portrayals. The idea that anyone who is disgusted by these particular stories must not have been around for the last several decades of comics, or must be “feminazi prudes,” and so forth. I feel that I AM, at least in part, the target audience. If the target audience is people who want to see these women being sexy, then I’m so right there. Starfire might well be one of the reasons I specifically sought out redheads (leading to my first real life girlfriend being a curly-haired redhead). Her free-spirited attitude towards sex certainly helps when I’m called upon to pick my favorite Titan! Catwoman was one of my earliest crushes, so of course I want to see her in sexual situations. And I especially love the idea of Catwoman on top, as she should be. It’s not a really complex thing. Simply put, I love T&A. I’ll even admit to picking up comics in the past featuring characters I was totally unfamiliar with just because of the “ooh, she’s hot” factor.

So being told that if I don’t like it then I just don’t get it or can’t get it doesn’t fly with me. It doesn’t bother me that they’re with men at all. I don’t like men as much as I do women, but I’m not against them, and Batman especially needs to get laid. I don’t think sex should be restricted in media. I’m an adult, and I love the fact that I can find comics that are catered to me as an adult, with adult scenes. I like sex and violence in my media, like many other people. The issue for me will always be one of quality. I don’t watch movies that simply cater to the lowest possible form of entertainment and don’t bother to even try to appeal to a slightly wider or more intelligent audience, and I’m not going to buy the comics that do that, either. It’s been said before, but it does seem worth repeating, that pure pandering is just lazy art and bad storytelling, which shouldn’t be accepted by anyone, no matter what they have between their legs. It doesn’t matter if the story’s about prostitutes, blushing virgins, superheroes or politicians, the goal should always be to tell it well. And I think that the response shows that in this case, with people across the board, men and women, these comics fail to do that. The most damning thing of all is that in trying too hard to pander, they’re becoming unsexy, which is just pathetic. It becomes a parody of itself. Artists and writers being told to emulate what their publishers and producers imagine the ideal is as set by the minds of teenagers, instead of setting it.

This is the general response I’ve had to what I’ve seen, anyway, and one that is essentially shared by those in my circle who are also fond of the ladies, so to speak (straight men as well as gay and bisexual women). I can only assume that those who continue to fail to see or accept that are either incredibly forgiving of bad storytelling (which is sad), or incredibly stubborn and deluded (even sadder). For my part, I’ve no interest in bad stories, and I see nothing wrong with holding my media to a higher standard, including superhero comics. Sadly, it is an industry-wide problem, far too widespread to be just a few artistic misfires or sloppy writing. One can only hope that they are leaving money on the table by continuing down this path, and that the target audience can be kept even happier if you don’t constantly insult it – along with anyone else who might be interested in becoming part of it.



A lady-bro nod?

I’m a bisexual woman myself, and I know I’m definitely capable of being attracted to a little T&A now and then. I’ve definitely found women in other comic books to be sexy. But I also like my partners, be they of either gender, to be just as attracted to me as I am to them. I don’t find sex for any reason but mutual attraction and desire to be very sexy at all — and that’s not the sort of sex we’re getting here, especially with Starfire. Showing me Catwoman’s boobs just because the writer thinks I might like to see some boobs doesn’t really do it for me. I feel like for a character to truly be sexy, there needs to be some personality, some kind of spark that can create an attraction beyond “hey, boobs!”

And as for Starfire, she doesn’t really seem to be all that into the sex she’s having. She’s posing in positions that don’t even look humanly possible, let alone sexy, and perfectly okay with being passed around from one man to the other like she’s nothing but a toy. As a woman, I wouldn’t enjoy being treated that way, and I certainly don’t think it’s sexy to see a female character, or a male character, really, be treated that way either.

One of the most unsexy things in the world is badly written attempts to be sexy. It’s why so much porn and erotica is absolutely hilarious to actually look at and/or read. This was, at best, laughably badly written, and at worst, way too offensive to ever be sexy.

I’m willing to admit that I’d be just as much a target as anyone to buy a comic because I found a woman in it to be actually sexy. But in order for her to be sexy, she’d also have to be well-written, not just slapped down on the page as some sort of “sexy sex kitten now with more sexy sex” or whatever Starfire and Catwoman were supposed to be.

I love a sexy Catwoman, but this? Give me a sly, sultry Selina Kyle over one who just knows how to flash her bra.



marian griffith says:

I know it is a year late (and unlikely to be read) but they could have done so much better by starting the first page with an extreme close up of Selene’s face, focussing on an expression of fear and concern (not panic) in her eye. Then the next page zoom out to see her whole head and part of her upper torso and only then segue into her frantic packing, zooming out far enough to always treat her as a person not as a collecton of body parts.
It would have introduced the character as a human being.
Of course the rest of the writing would have to be improved a lot over the flat mess that was delivered. The advantage of this would also have been there would have been no room for the totally creepy last page and a half…

The point is that it would have taken so little to salvage this title if the writers had been competent enough to realise they had a disaster on their hands.



Jonathan says:

I’m a male, and I agree with your post. For me though, the saddest thing about these comics is that there were a few very good comics in the DC reboot, like Batwoman and Wonder Woman, with strong female characters, and these are being overshadowed by the other, completely offensive ones.



That bothers me, too. It bothers me that a lot of comics that were actually good and had strong female characters are being overshadowed. I’ve tried to at least, in other posts and on twitter, point out some of the ones that are good in hopes that people don’t only focus on the bad.



Lindi says:

I too was a daughter of the (mid)80′s and could go on about my love of Power Rangers, Batman, Spider-Man and X-Men all on Fox. About the McDonalds toys and all that, but I want to give my own little two cents to this debate.

I left the world of comics before I ever got a change to truly get into it. Those who care might ask… why?

Because, as a precious little 9 year old girl who could have intelligent conversation about women and their portrayal in the media, I didn’t for one second believe the was anything for me in the world of comics, and my feelings would have been easily ground into a fine powder by some of the forms of subtle, overt, and physical exclusion from comics you ladies have experienced.

Furthermore, as a female gamer, female science-fiction fan and general female geek and enthusiast of anything considered “For the Boys” who also happens to be black… I didn’t have the strength to fight the good fight in so many different entertainment genres. What people like Lou Mo and Northern Thoughts fail to understand is simple, they don’t know how it feels to be constantly reminded the the forms of entertainment they choose, that their hearts beat for, that they anticipate like a hundred thousand tiny Christmas mornings/Birthdays/Hanukkah/(other present giving festivals for kids) … is considered not for them.

And NorthernThoughts, as a conservative myself, I find your comments highly insulting.

And I AM someone who was both a fan of the Teen Titans series on Cartoon Network, knows Catwoman/Seline Kyle’s history as a thief and has done enough research on Starfire and the rest of the Teen Titans that when I heard about the 52 reboots I thought that maybe yes, Starfire was going to be slightly sexualized, I was willing to accept –without my usual eye rolling and analysis of the sexiness/cheesecake/male fanservice elements (I am less tolerant of the costume pandering than Ms. Snarky. Having thinner skin on that issue meant I knew, sadly, comics were not for me.)– a skimpy costume for her superhero persona and as a homage to her original character concept, and I was one hundred percent willing to not get my panties in a proverbial wad and just enjoy the freaking comic

…But for her to act like a walking fleshlight, an emotionless alien honeypot who poses like a pornstar, does guys for the heck of it and doesn’t remember their names?
I have to accept that, too? So she’s an awesome superhero, but her non-super persona is an emotionless sextoy? I feel like a circus performer; I jump through a hoop only to be rewarded with a bigger hoop, on fire, at the end of being fired out of a cannon while juggling kittens and singing “America the Beautiful”.

Well, I don’t care how much of a “feminist” that makes me seem to anyone, I find that downright disgusting. (also Feminist is not a dirty word and I am stick of it being hijacked as such, I’ll try to stay on point form here on.)

Does anyone really want to know what female comic fans want? Why people like me, with much frustration, have not allowed themselves to become big(ger) fans of comics?
Because there seems to be no room in the tent unless we sit down, shut up, and nod quietly. We have to say anything that comics do with female super characters is acceptable because we should just be glad to be included as more then a non-super family member or plot device/girlfriend.

I just want my female super-heroines to be sexy without being sexdolls. Just like their male counterparts have done for over a freaking half century. Yes, we know it’s all a fantasy but why does My Imagination have to be taxed to deeply and so frequently to jut be a part of the community? Why do I have to always sit down and shut up and not question the great and powerful wizard just to have some fun?

Why are my only options to like/accept the comic status quo or get the frak out?
can’t we all just…sit together and read some comics without somebody feeling left out and excluded?

All I want, all I believe all female comic fans want is just that. For all of us to read together, be happy, enjoy the medium and see our heroes and heroines be sexy and powerful and kick-ass without the robo-porno poses.

I ran out of steam for Catwoman, someone else can pick up the baton.



NorthernThoughts says:

I don’t care if you’re offended. My point is that this article is nothing but puff, written to find offense in something very common place in comic books. You seem to base your appreciation of these characters on a child-friendly portrayal in various mediums and some basic understanding of what they were in comics. Sorry to have to say this, but you are demonstrating your ignorance for making statements without a deep knowledge of these characters’ histories.

As I stated previously, going back to the first superheroine, Wonder Woman, female heroes in comics began as sexual figures. That’s the reality, and if you’re offended, don’t buy the comics.



And I also don’t care if you’re offended. No one does. I think it’s time for you to take your wonderful and oh-so-informed opinions elsewhere and get off my blog.

I wrote my personal thoughts and experiences regarding a topical issue on my personal blog. If that’s something that’s so offensive to you, I recommend you develop a thicker skin and perhaps a new hobby. And possibly come up with a new list of trivia that’s a little more impressive than “Wonder Woman was created by a misogynist.” No, really? Next you’re going to tell me Captain America started out as WWII propaganda! (In case you missed it, btw, that was sarcasm. Do I need to define that for you like someone obviously needs to define feminism, sexism, objectification, and puff piece for you?)

Just a little word of advice, and then I’m done talking to you (and I would advise everyone else who’s commenting to please be done with you as well): you don’t sound educated. You don’t sound informed. You aren’t even capable of staying on or addressing the actual topic at hand, and your reading comprehension level is questionable. You sound like what you’ve accused everyone else as being on this post. And if you find yourself encountering situations like this frequently (and I’m pretty sure you do, given how quickly you’re offended by apparently everything), it’s not everyone else. It’s you.

Also, just FYI, people are probably mocking you behind your back. Because seriously, dude, you are an incredibly mockable, ignorant douchebag. To the point that I had to stop mocking you myself, because it was way, way too easy. After a point, it just got really sad and well, your very favorite word — pathetic.

And again, to everyone else. Stop feeding this troll. You’re only giving him what’s probably his one joy in his sad, angry little life.



NorthernThoughts says:

So you stopped mocking me long enough to tear yourself away from your angry blog post to mock me some more? Wow, just wow…

As for being educated, nearly done a second university degree, moving onto law school, if not a masters in history before hand. This, after finishing a year teaching English at the college level at Nantong Vocational College in Nantong, China (AKA The Gateway to the West). Oh yes, I’m the sad, pathetic uneducated one in this discussion says the female comic geek angry that comics aren’t geared to her gender instead of the vast majority of comic book readers who happen to be male. Urgh…



NorthernThoughts says:

P.S. Despite your angry post, and the dozens I’ve seen since making the mistake of reading the complaints surrounding these two issues, DC Comics are selling INCREDIBLY well right now.

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2011/09/27/dc-comicss-new-52-sells-out-in-a-good-way/?mod=google_news_blog

That must make you all kinds of mad eh?



FlyByNight says:

“Stop feeding this troll.”

Aw, but he’s so adorable when he’s insulting people!

It’s your party, I’m happy to freeze out the rude guests as you wish. :-)



There’s a reason why cartoons and movies based on comics often do better than the comics themselves. It’s been hard at times to be a female fan of comics, simply because I’m a woman. I’ve had to drop comics I used to like because a new writer came on and decided hey, let’s sex this up a bit! I’ve had to change comic shops — or only buy on line — because the closest LCS didn’t want me there. You’d think they’d want all the business they could get, but apparently, money from a woman sometimes it’s good enough.

I don’t blame you for shying away from comics like you did. Even with all the wonderfully written, strong female characters we have to read out there, it’s so easy to stumble on one that just makes you feel horrible just to read it. And then if you speak out? Shut up, little girl. Let the boys have their comics. All I want is to enjoy a comic like anyone else, not feel like I’m being belittled and treated like someone who’s probably all boobs and no brain.

I’ve never understood why women have to be objectified in comics. If men can be strong and sexy without being useless bimbos, why can’t women? Honestly, I think if you’re not capable of writing a woman who does in fact act like a woman, then you need to suck it up, stop being lazy, and learn to actually write.

Men still read the well-written comics with strong female characters. And a lot of men don’t like being condescended to anymore than women. So there’s no point in this still happening in 2011. No point at all.



I’m a twenty-something woman, I’ve recently been getting into comic books (firstly through Dark Horse and their Buffy season 7 titles), but I’ve never read a DC title. You’d think I’d be the perfect type to market their re-launch to (I can’t be the only female who started reading comic books because they give a fix for an old favourite show).
After this debacle, I’m pretty sure I’m not getting into reading DC. I’m sticking with Dark Horse’s show titles and X-Men (if I can ever work out the continuity enough to get into them. Lol)



Pah. Season 8. I’m sure you knew what I meant though :P



Don’t worry. No one can figure out X-Men continuity. I’ve been reading for 20 years, and I’m STILL confused.

Although a good book to ease in with that’s currently running is Generation Hope, by Kieron Gillen. The first few issues are collected in a TPB that you can find at least online, and the other issues are pretty easy to catch up on in single form. It’s a new team of mutants, so there’s less continuity — plus, the added bonus of women who act like real people!



I dont understand why DC thinks men need to have boobs in comics, if we want to look at boobs it is not that damned hard, the internet is like 90% boobs. Why do they have to screw up (no pun intended) a character to make her only character trait “cheesecake”. It only alienates the female readers, who they really should be courting and pisses off guys that are actually interested in the characters.
I read comics for the story and playboy for the boobs, simple as that.
Someone get Gail Simone on the case dammit.



Exactly. Even if what someone’s looking for is comic book books, there’s plenty of those. If not on the Internet, they can always just go read Tarot: Witch of the Black Rose.

Superhero comics are, supposedly, about heroes fighting the villains. You don’t really need a lot of boob flashes for that. The only reason a writer really chooses to focus on T&A is their too lazy to come up with a real plot and just fall back on “sex sells.” Honestly, with this whole thing, I don’t know if I’m more insulted as a woman or a writer.



La femme chauve-souris says:

My boyfriend left this up in a browser window for me to read–he’s the buyer of comics, but will find things for me specifically because he’s sweet like that. I looked at the cover of the Catwoman in question and thought how I didn’t want to read it because it looked like something hyper-sexual geared towards men only and I figured it would make me angry.

Sure, I have a huge crush on Batman and I may fantasize about him for fun–but he’s not portrayed as a whore in most of continuity. When All-Star Batman and Robin came out, I thought the first issues were hilarious, but he soon ran the whole uncaring, no-strings-sex theme into the ground along with the catch-phrase…and that was what made me stop reading it before it was over. It wasn’t the Batman I’d gotten to love through reading my boyfriend’s collection of trades (Long Halloween, No Man’s Land, Bruce Wayne: Fugitive/Murderer) with great storylines that built him up as a character I could care about because I saw him growing psychologically–and taking steps backwards too.

Not seeing that kind of character development will keep me away from a title. I, too, was fantastically in love with Rogue as a character during the Fox airings of the X-Men cartoons (and my friend who got me watching? She and I would play X-Men in our socks on the tiled floor of the laundry room in our apartment building to pretend we were flying because she was Storm and I was Rogue and despite/because of their humanizing issues, we loved and wanted to be those women). But when I go to read the comics, they’re very static characters. Perhaps because there are so many storylines in similar universes, I don’t really have the urge to read X-Men titles; the focus is never where I want it to be (Cyclops and Jean Grey always came off as the jock-and-cheerleader couple I hated anyway). And why go for the girl who seemed forever unattainable because an outward manifestation of her psychological issues, anyway? Something to wonder about (and ramble).

Anyway. I posted a link to your article on my Twitter feed, so hopefully some of my friends (of both sexes) will also read this and think about whether they want to become comic fans if they’re not already, and/or protest the vapid hyper-sexualization of female characters you and others are highlighting. So thanks for crystallizing those thoughts and keeping the debate going. :)



My roommate and I actually saw the cover to the Catwoman comic before we read it, and thought the same thing. I was tempted to buy it because I like Catwoman and thought maybe I could start with a #1, but the cover immediately put me off. And then I got home, found out what was in the comic, borrowed someone else’s to read it for myself, and was really glad I didn’t waste my money. Sometimes you can judge something by its cover — and this was a good case of that.

Bad characterization makes any character unappealing. Who wants to read about a cardboard cut-out? There’s a lot of comics I read here and there just to keep up with continuity, but the ones that keep me coming back — and the ones I always make sure get my money — are the ones with solid characterization and plots that actually advance the characters. X-Men I tend to go back and forth with depending on who’s writing and who’s drawing. I actually like the writer of Uncanny X-Men right now, but Greg Land’s art is so horribly porntastic that I can barely stand to read it. X-Men Legacy has been a good title, though, with characters who act more like people than not.

Your description of you and your friend playing X-Men sounds a lot like what I used to do with my friend. And my younger sister, who was around four when the X-Men movie came out, used to run around making wind noises with a white towel draped over her head to look like Storm’s white hair. Comic book characters definitely appeal to little girls as much as anyone else!

Thanks for sharing the link. And I’m glad you liked the post! :)



“So when I look at an issue of Catwoman (who, by the way, I also loved as a child, to the point that it was the only DC comic I ever bought for years”

I watched Catwoman on the Batman Animated series, and for a long time only read the Batman and Superman Animated series comics ($3.75 Canadian each, back when regular DC comics cost about $1.99).

My first real experience with mainstream DC comics (besides a few issues that my Dad bought for me when I was about 8 years old and the Byrne Superman origin story) was a pocket novel, Batman: Knightfall, that my mother borrowed for me from the library when I was about 16 years old.

The story was so good that I wanted to read the comic. I started buying the individual issues (10 years after their debut, at two times the cover price), because I didn’t know about ‘trade paperbacks’ (the Animated series didn’t have those). I also bought the first issues of Robin and Catwoman, and liked both characters (and Spoiler!) ever since. I read Catwoman’s volume, the preceding 4-issue mini, Selina’s Big Score, the subsequent volume (except the ‘Blackest Night’ issue) and some other comics that had Catwoman in them.

I loved those early issues of her first volume (before ‘No Man’s Land’), regardless of what anyone else says about them. I did not like Frank Miller adding the dominatrix element (especially since he said that he considers ‘Batman: Year One’ to be in continuity with ‘All-Star Batman and Robin’ in which… well:

All-Star Batman and Robin #3
http://www.comicvine.com/black-canary/29-1689/black-canary-all-star/108-27648/aa_asbr07_009/105-1230822/

Batman mentions the smoker being Catwoman, then he and Black Canary have sex with their costumes on ‘because it’s better that way.’

Personally, I like the mainstream Black Canary as she appeared in Birds of Prey:

http://www.comicvine.com/black-canary/29-1689/black-canary/108-173/birds-of-prey-064-12/105-423089/

http://www.comicvine.com/birds-of-prey-birds-of-prey/37-223089/

And you want to read ‘Birds Of Prey: Manhunt’. It features Catwoman and Huntress. : D So Much Fun!!

http://www.comicvine.com/birds-of-prey-manhunt-where-revenge-delights/37-47372/

“It’s about titillating the audience (read: the male readers) at the expense of the female character’s humanity. It’s very hard to explain to someone who’s never been a woman and never gone through the experience of being sized up like a faceless piece of meat, but it’s a sickening feeling. It’s certainly not something I find sexy or entertaining.”

No, it’s not. I’m male, and I find it sickening to size someone up like that.

It’s also not something I find entertaining or sexy.

What I find entertaining is personality (like Catwoman’s internal monologue coupled with her actions).

Remember issue #21, where Catwoman had to steal a movie script and got trapped under the director’s bed while he was being a jerk to a girl? Catwoman looked bored, and gave a thumbs-up when she heard the girl finally slap him! That was entertaining!

http://www.comicvine.com/catwoman-box-office-poison/37-41017/

What I find sexy is Catwoman purposefully being sexy, usually teasing someone (and that I know her intentions behind it, which adds humor).

And I find this hilarious and attractive at the same time:
http://www.comicvine.com/catwoman-here-comes-the-bride/37-40501/

“Well, Catwoman’s a villain, so really, what does it matter if she’s all sexed up? She has no morals.”

“Catwoman’s moral code is not the point.

And as for the whole implication in that it’s fine to portray a “slut” as long as she’s a villain is so backwards and offensive I’m not even going to go there. I’ll just tell you flat out: it’s wrongheaded and gross.”

Catwoman had morals. She did not murder. She helped people where she could. She only stole from criminals, for a while. She was an animal rights activist (to the point where she would punish poachers or people who traded in illegal fur). She stood up for people who she saw were being abused. She patrolled Gotham City during Cataclysm. She raised funds (illegally) to help in Gotham City’s reconstruction. She risked her life to get the Gotham City building plans to Batman.

Catwoman #1 and #37 sums up Catwoman’s personality and history nicely:

http://www.comicvine.com/catwoman-anodyne-part-one/37-52122/

http://www.comicvine.com/catwoman-character-driven/37-98301/

She was a failed hero. When she was younger, she tried to clean up Gotham City, in her own way, and gave up, instead giving in to the thrill of theft.

In ‘Batgirl: Year One,’ even Black Canary says that she gave up on Gotham City, and moved to Seattle with Green Arrow.

But underneath all that, Selina was a woman looking for a family. The family she never had as she was growing up. The family she now had as the guardian of the East End.

Catwoman changed her costume for a fresh start: She wanted to leave her life of crime behind, and try to be a hero.

What kept her from going back to crime? ‘I have a family now. Holly, Karen, Leslie, Ted, Slam. I would lose them if I became a thief.’

Her family (supporting cast) kept her grounded. She even gave up being Catwoman when her child was born.

But Will Pfeifer hadn’t read Ed Brubaker’s run (he told me that), in which Brubaker had Catwoman allowing brothels to exist, but making sure no new ones opened after old ones closed down. She actively discouraged women from going into that industry, because she knew what would happen in the East End. Will Pfeifer loved that Selina Kyle was a dominatrix (told me that to), and played that up somewhat.

http://www.comicvine.com/catwoman-anodyne-part-one/37-52122/

http://www.comicvine.com/catwoman-character-driven/37-98301/

To Anyone: Read Catwoman #1 and #37 by Ed Brubaker. Then read Catwoman #1 by Judd Winnick.

It’s easy to see that Judd Winnick threw away decades of characterization when he wrote Catwoman.

I’m not only upset about Judd Winnick writing soft core porn in Catwoman; I want to read a Catwoman story, not someone else’s sexual fantasy.

I’m upset that this is in Catwoman #1 of the DCU New 52. This is ground-level, foundational continuity. Catwoman’s story from ‘Batman: Year One,’ the origin post-’Crisis on Infinite Earths’, stayed in continuity. Editorial at DC tried to ignore it for a while, but it came back. The fantasy from Frank Miller’s mind.

You know what? Either ‘The Dark Knight Returns’ or ‘The Dark Knight Strikes Again’ by Frank Miller, which he has said is also in continuity ‘All-Star Batman and Robin’ and ‘Batman: Year One,’ has an old Catwoman running a brothel.

That is what Frank Miller thought of her. That is the direction that Judd Winnick is taking.

This version of continuity is what future stories will be built upon, unless her character is rebooted.

That’s what makes me sad and angry.

Catwoman is one of my 4 favorite comic characters.

Business Reasons:

‘Comics are for boys’ means nothing to business. In the business world, companies try to get the highest price, or largest market share, that would translate into ‘more profit.’

Old Spice was a deodorant for men. Woman liked it too. You know what happened? The company added variety to the brand, and included a few variations that are specifically for women.

Pants were for men. Woman wore them too. You know what happened? People started tailoring pants to a woman’s body.

Businesses want to make money. It is a very bad business move to alienate a segment of the market that could bring in revenue. Regardless of whether the product was designed ‘for men,’ it makes Every business sense to try and make it friendly for women too.

I’m not saying ‘make it exclusively for women,’ but make it useable for them.

‘A Man’s Club’ is a completely pointless argument, from a business perspective.

And it makes No sense to damage, or cripple, the product that your consumers buy, especially to try and bring in more consumers.

From a business perspective, a company should make a new product to appeal to the wants of the market they are after. Giving the new product a similar name to the old one, as a marketing strategy, is deceptive and kind of lame, but it could work.

But this? It’s like paying for a bag of fresh food, then finding a rotten one in the middle of the bag.

Then realizing that the next bag may have a rotten one in it, because it’s the same person packing the next bag.

And you don’t have to approve this post, or the links below, but just thought you might like to walk down memory lane. :)

http://www.youtube.com/shows/animation-cartoons

She-Ra: Princess of Power
http://www.youtube.com/show?p=0ym3QxFCSQU&feature=sh_ac_show_7_30

He-Man and the Masters of the Universe
http://www.youtube.com/show/heman?feature=sh_ac_show_4_1

X-Men: Evolution
http://www.youtube.com/show?p=DmJMgpU45BE&feature=sh_ac_show_1_10

And it’s not Transformers, but the stories are good!

Mobile Suit Gundam
http://www.youtube.com/show/mobilesuitgundam?feature=sh_ac_show_3_11

ZZ Gundam
http://www.youtube.com/show/mobilesuitzgundam?feature=sh_ac_show_2_15

Wing Gundam (alternate universe)
http://www.youtube.com/show/mobilesuitgundamwing?feature=sh_ac_show_1_32



This is a very good response, and one that brings up a lot of points. A lot of which I admit I don’t have the history of a long-time DC reader to really make, since my primary pull list has always been pretty Marvel heavy.

One thing that all of this mess has made me want to read, though, is Ed Brubaker’s Catwoman. I’m actually kicking myself for not doing it ages ago. I like Catwoman and I’ve yet to be let down by Brubaker, so it’s seems only natural I would’ve read it already.

It doesn’t make a lot of sense, from a business standpoint, to declare something “for boys” and then stop your marketing at that. Especially not in 2011, when we’re supposed to be moving away from that, not towards it.

I’m glad to see so many men who understand my point and can relate to it. I had hopes when I wrote this that I’d get a positive male response from male comic book readers who were also tired of objectification in comic books, but I’ll admit, based on a lot of the BS I see on the Internet, I was worried I’d get mostly insults. It’s been so encouraging to see that my fears were mostly unfounded and, aside from a few idiots, most of the men who have commented have been decent guys who want to see women as real characters as much as I do. It gives me real hope for the industry that so many readers what good stories, not just flashy drawings of T&A.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me and for taking the time to back me up with some of the other comments.



DC hired Neilsen to conduct a survey on the New 52 Relaunch:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/09/28/dc-comics-hires-nielsen-to-survey-its-readers-heaven-knows-what-theyll-discover/

Online survey option is available.



I actually tried to participate and was told I would not be needed for the survey. No reason given as to why.



csdaley says:

I have been reviewing every issue of the relaunch. At the risk of sounding like a sexist pig, I did not hate Catwoman. I didn’t love it either. I admitted in my review the comic was on thin ground with me. Although I though the relationship with Batman could prove interesting (I was crystal balling there). The comic didn’t hold up on a reread though which makes me think it could be in trouble for me.

I have been really trying to examine why I didn’t hate Catwoman because I hated Red Hood. I gave it my worst review. I nearly blew a gasket over what they had done with Starfire. It also left me worried about Teen Titans (a book I was looking forward too but is written by same author).

I completely see your point of view on Catwoman. I probably didn’t hate it because it was written for me. This was an opurtunity missed by DC. I am not a big art person. Art is there to enhance the book but it is all about story. I don’t even really recall thinking, “look at the boob shots.” Catwoman was at least vaguely trying to write a story. I could see the threads of where it might be leading. Red Hood was ridiculous. Thrown in as shock value. Completely degrading to anyone with a brain and ruined one of my favorite characters.

Thanks for the post because it has continued to make me think about why I had two completely different reactions. While I know you said it was too late for DC I would like to point out Wonder Woman and Supergirl were done really well. Apparently their writers were able to hold off the DC brass.



I don’t think you sound like a sexist pig. And as far as the books go, Catwoman was better written than Red Hood, though it still could’ve been so, so much better. I think what disappointed me the most on Catwoman is there’s a lot of potential with that character, and it felt lost. It could’ve been an amazing book, and was instead left to be mediocre.

I don’t expect men to have the same reaction to “boob shots” that women do, and not because they’re sexist or clueless or anything else. Simply because they take a different experience with them when they read. A man can look at it and think “yeah, boob shots again,” whereas a woman might be reminded of her personal feelings about feeling limited to body parts instead of being allowed to be a whole person. I don’t think a man having the same reaction to it as a woman means there’s anything wrong with the man or his response, as long as he doesn’t then turn around and tell the woman her response to it is somehow invalid because it’s not his. (Which, you didn’t do, unlike some of the jackasses on the Internet.)

I feel sad that if there are other, good “New 52″ comics that I’m going to miss them, but I can’t in good conscience become a new DC reader after all of this.



csdaley, Catwoman had some of her personality. Some of it was removed to be able to write that story, but she still had some of it.

Starfire… they removed the ‘emotional’ aspect of love (caring for people) and focused on the physical aspect of sex appeal.

Catwoman was at least moving around as part of the story. Starfire was simply posing.



csdaley says:

I do think one of the reasons the art didn’t bother me is I do focus way more on the story. If Superman had opened up with a shot of his bare chest as he pulled on his costume I wouldn’t have cared. What I would have cared about is sucking the life out if the character. Which they did with Starfire.

I am not quite willing to admit they have sucked the life out of Catwoman. They dropped us into a small intro. Batman actually utters the words, we are not doing this again. There is a big history and back story we don’t know. Honestly, I am interested in knowing if the writer can somehow pull it off.



I’d like to hope it gets better. I would like for Catwoman to be a good story, and like I said, I did have a different reaction to it than I did Red Hood. But as a woman, I find it really hard to have a lot of hope, given my past experience with things like this, that a writer who believes we should show a character’s literal T&A before we ever see her face is going to do much to create a strong story about a strong woman.

And as far as the sex scene went, my problem there was more bad writing than anything else. I find it hard to be compelled by a Batman who will drop his pants and his guard in the middle of the patrol. Plus, that position they were in? How does that even work? How did they get their parts out of their suits enough to even have sex at that angle? Wasn’t there some zipper chafing? It was all a little silly, and honestly, with the sex scene at the end, I was offended as a writer first and a woman second.



Zander says:

That was exactly my thought. Same with ‘Kori’, too. I shouldn’t have to hope that they’re going to come up with some story to explain away her ditzy attitude. I was reading an article about the relaunch and they said that they were taking the best of the character’s histories and merging it into one cohesive whole. If this is the best, I shudder to think about what they threw away.



hatewheel says:

If it helps leaven the experience away from just purely sex-based / gender-based disappointment, I thought the new Action Comics and Justice League titles were milquetoast. They weren’t that bad, but the writers at DC squandered a chance for it to be epic. All the revitalizing potential of a relaunch — and you have characters like Superman, Batman, Green Lantern at your behest — and the stories come off very unimaginative, like they just picked a place within the last 50 years of comic books, wrote out what they didn’t like and plopped down an iteration of something we all understand and can imagine anyway. There’s nothing “perfected” here, nothing amazing. It’s like someone took a broom to the beach to sweep sand. But I digress. My point is that the whole relaunch is a cheap gimmick to garner sales. The comics do not read like a new, fresh start, and they’re full of cheap gimmicks like Superman circa 1938 jumping around Metropolis in blue jeans and acting like a character a century divorced from the one everyone understands to be Superman, and Starfire being a dartboard.



deadcowaroma says:

Loved the article. It’s so frustrating to me to read other opinions about these books and you can tell that these people don’t quite understand what the problem is. It’s not an issue of “character strength”. It’s an issue of the creator’s intent, and you spell that out perfectly.



Thanks. That’s been my frustration, too. And even sometimes when you explain it, people don’t seem to get it. It’s like talking to a brick wall with some people.



kowoyoshi says:

Really ? instead of ranting you could of just moved on sheesh people and they retarded morals



Please come back when you can leave a comment that both adds something to the discussion and is at least grammatically correct enough to make sense. If you can’t so that, take your own advice, and move on.



csdaley says:

I would like to point out that nowhere in the comic does it say they are having sex. It might be this is as far as they ever go for the reason you mentioned. Can’t get the bottoms off. A lot of people have jumped to the conclusion that sex is about to occur but we could open up book 2 and the first panel could be them disengaging from the heavy petting. I also freely admit we are being pulled by our noses to think sex is eminent.



csdaley says:

By the way this doesn’t make the writing any better. I was disappointed with the cheap thrill angle. Much more interested in the we are not doing this again angle.



David D. says:

I’ve never been a big comic book reader, but I have always enjoyed the stories and the characters of both DC and Marvel as presented through other mediums. So as both a fan of these stories as well as a filmmaker/writer I take offense to what has been presented in these comics. As you said, comics, like film, music, and video games, are an art form, and a large part of what makes these art forms compelling is their portrayals of relatable characters and interesting stories. The argument of “get over it, it’s a comic, what do you expect?” is completely demeaning of the art form in the same way saying “video games are just toys were you blow sh*t up” or “it’s just a movie, who cares if the story is coherent?” undermine their respective art forms.

These comics are not about telling a story. They are not about presenting characters that the audience can relate to. They are about giving 13-16 year old boys a hard on, and as an adult man who enjoys these characters it’s infuriating. I can sympathize with and appreciate how demeaning it is to women, but also, it’s worth mentioning, that aside from that it’s frustrating for me because the characters and stories I enjoy are being reduced to trashy sex books that I would, quite frankly, be embarrassed reading. I can appreciate sex in media, and as a straight male I definitely don’t mind seeing boobs, however when it’s treated in a trashy, gratuitous way that completely undermines character development and story I’m offended for numerous reasons and I have absolutely no interest in supporting that.

This was an excellent read and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about this.



Thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to read and respond.

It’s definitely insulting to men. The belief that men are only capable of maintaining interest if there’s boobs is also demeaning. Most of the men I’ve known have been perfectly able to read something with a plot. And if you’re telling men they can’t read what, 22 pages, without being sold sex, too? That panders to the lowest of the Neanderthals, and most men that I know at least are better than that.



Ritchard says:

I’m not normally the sort to reply to blogs, but I’ve got to say this was beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. The next time I get into a discussion about why this whole mess is just so wrong, I think I’m just going to send the other person a link to this (and to Michele Lee’s piece, as well).

My daughter’s barely five, and possibly the biggest Batman and G.I. Joe fan I’ve ever known (outside myself, maybe). You’ve reminded me of how indignant I’ve felt when we’ve gone to McDonald’s simply because she wants the Lego Batman toy, only to get a worthless comb, despite us asking for the “boy toy,” because someone in the back saw a little girl and thought the cashier rang up the order incorrectly. Or how tough it is to explain to a kid why there was no Miss Martian or Artemis in their Young Justice Happy Meal line-up (because kids really want a lame villain like Captain Cold more than the main characters, right?). Or of how my wife (politely) chewed out a Hasbro rep at Comic-Con who actually told our daughter that they had plenty of nice My Little Pony dolls for girls when she asked about the possibility of an Arcee figure, and he seemed completely dumbfounded by the idea that a female could possibly like Transformers.

I really hope that these are concerns of the past by the time she’s grown up. I sadly doubt they will be, but I can hope, right?



Thank you. I’m glad you liked the post.

I have a much younger sister who I watched grow up. She’s 14 now, and when I told her about what was going on with Starfire she, a Teen Titans fan, told me she felt like part of her inner child had died and that they’d “ruined” Starfire. She sounded so sad that it broke my heart. That’s really what DC wants from its future potential buyers?

I hope for your daughter’s sake, too, that things get better. I think they’re on their way to better, and I think the debate around this is a good first step.



Matthew says:

Hello,

I’ve read your post and I have to agree with you. I’m a male age 22 and this type of comic would basically be targeted towards me. Now I will say this: Seeing Starfire and Selina in a sexual pose (even in those images, except for the one where Starfire’s back seems to rearrange itself, that looks like an ouchie) or even when we see either parts of their breasts or bottom is not wrong to me, tasteful cheesecake is not a bad thing. I don’t mind cheesecake, nor beefcake, as these are suppose to be people who are physically fit to the best their body can let them be, so there is nothing wrong to see that.

But I will agree that taking two really wonderful characters and just making one into the complete opposite of what she was and making the other just be all about her T&A followed up by sex is just…yeah everyone has already made the point. There was no need to make Starfire just a sex doll, as even before this as a wonderful character she came across as a sexually independent and strong woman. I will say that yeah, I do have a bit of a crush on her, she is beautiful (her long red hair that suddenly went ON FIRE was major part that sold me, I’m a sucker for red head’s) and had (key word had) a wonderful heart that she gave to her friends, now she just doesn’t care which makes it sad even for me. Selina well, I read Gotham City Sirens for awhile (I dropped it due to needing to make my pull list shorter) and she was amazing there; yes she lived with Ivy and Harley and they were also very beautiful in their own right, and yes there were images of being able to see any parts of their body, but if I recall they never went overboard. I do know about her back story though which makes DC’s treatment of her just shameful.

Still, I’m not collecting the new 52 because of the fact that I cannot afford it, so I will be waiting for the trade paperbacks. By then we should get a clearer image on what’s going on with Starfire and Selina, and I hope that they turn out better than what’s going on now. They are wonderful characters, full of rich back story and had done many amazing things, so there was no point to make them into what we see now. I understand that DC wants to sell comics, but they can keep the bits of tasteful cheesecake while not ruining great characters.



I agree. A little cheesecake is to be expected in comics. And if a character has T&A and a personality, that’s fine with me. But reducing characters, especially ones as vibrant as Starfire and Catwoman to nothing but sexy poses and bra shots is just sad. I also hope that they’ll get better from here, but since Judd Winick has basically come out and said he did it on purpose, I don’t have a lot of hope.

And hey, as a redhead myself, I can’t blame you for being a bit of a sucker for red hair. ;)



You have to realize this is Jim Lee who Publishing the DC Reboots, you know the guy who created W.i.l.d.c.a.t.s who is known controversy over his TV series because one of the one of the Characters name Voodoo was a Stripper in the Comic’s they change it to keep it family friendly which didn’t last long.

Speaking of which, I do agree that they updated made changes to all the heroes and villains to make them look cool but there character is a bit off.



Yes, I know Jim Lee is involved. As is Dan DiDio. Neither of them impress me much.



Klaus says:

Can’t wait until you write a similar rant about guys in commercials very often presented as dumb fucks just to make the woman look better or just any medium were men are portrayed as mindless sex maniacs. You know, men treated equal to women and how upsetting it is etc. When will anyone just stop to fight for special treatment and call it “equality”. There aren’t many girls interested in superhero comics, whats the point in catering to an audience who hardly exists to begin with. To make yet another minority happy? In todays society, where anyone bows to any minority who yells just loud enough, there is hardly anyone left to fight for feminists. But some people just love to draw the victim card and – tada – they are published on some website, get some attention and suddenly feel important.

Not entierly related to this post, but weirdly enough, i never saw any woman anywhere to fight for the right to do physically hard or dirty work, feminism is all about cherry picking and making a career with little effort.



I actually DO have a problem with those sorts of portrayal of men, and find them problematic for both men and women. However, since this a blog about comics and not about advertising, I’m afraid you won’t see my thoughts on that here. Sorry to disappoint you!

I posted this on my personal site. The fact that it was then linked on other sites, including io9, was not my doing, nor was I even told before it happened.

Also, just so you keep from sticking your foot in your mouth again, women aren’t a minority. They’re a gender. Also, There are a lot of women interested in comics. About 30% of the audience overall is female, and 45% of the attendees of SDCC are also female. Might want to check your states because hey, there’s your foot in your mouth again!

You’re right. That’s not related to this post. Nor is it factual. Take your righteous indignation elsewhere.



[...] regarding how one particular artist’s warped idea of how Tosh and Massimo look. Inspired by this post by Ms Snarky. Share this:EmailPrintFacebookTwitterRedditDiggLike this:LikeBe the first to like this [...]



Eartha says:

Allow me to insert a simple: FUCK YES!

The male gaze in it’s exclusivity is tired and played out. It sucks to be female and have to sit through dehumanization just to try and enjoy something and hey! possible see some positive role modeling. Same goes for music and movies and tv…. If it’s got a good beat and a express some elements of humanity, I want to dance to it, but the whole “I don’t luh dem ho’s” thing sucks. Very interesting, while saddening, to hear this from a female comic fan-atic. I’m very sorry to hear that you’ve faced this in a place you love.

Sometimes when I’m thinking about this kind of shit heaped on females, I flip it and think… what if it was black and white people. Would we really, these days, expect black people to put up with hardcore blatant racism or try to blow it off as ‘just entertainment’ that they should shut up and get over? No. So why is it supposed to be so bloody acceptable when it’s women/men?

Right on with your excellent analysis.



FlyByNight says:

Exactly. If they spent the same amount of time and energy insulting to racial minorities there would be no “shut up and read something else, what does it matter to you?” It would be seen as “this is not how we want our society to be, and this concerns us all.”

I don’t care if some segment of the male population likes it this way. There’s porn that can satisfy those urges, and won’t offend people by being public or claiming to be egalitarian. This is not how I want my society to be.



Thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed the post and were able to relate to it.

The really sad thing is that these sort of comics DO show up when the debate is about race. Some of the comments made about John Stewart, the black Green Lantern, are absolutely horrific. There’s always some sad fanboy somewhere angry about comics being written about people other than people who look just like him. I just keep hoping at some point we’ll get to a place where those people are always called out for their bullshit until they’re the ones who are afraid to speak up.



Cameron says:

Just wanted to jump in with more support. I’m a high school social studies teacher, and we spent my entire Government class discussing this recent controversy and actually read your blog post as a jumping off point for our conversation.



Wow, thanks! I’m delighted to hear that my post was a part of your class.



Erik says:

Excellent article. I am in a similar boat as you – I love comics, but have not read them consistently in some time. When I heard about this DC reboot, I was interested; historically I have always been more of a Marvel guy, but I might wanna get in on the ground floor of the new adventures of old Batman. But this stuff bums me out on the whole deal. And I’m a dude. A dude who likes boobs. And a dude who likes sexually empowered women. But this ain’t that. The Starfire thing is… it’s just bad. It’s lazy writing, pandering to the lowest common denominator. The Catwoman business was less overt, but after reading various op-ed pieces (like this one), I was like, “Oh, yeah, duh – how did I not pick up on that?” Like I said, it’s a bummer.

Anyway, I agree, DC squandered an opportunity to attract new readers. I don’t think that just appealing to boys who want to fantasize about Starfire in a bikini are going to get the sales needed to sustain the books. Eh, but I could be wrong. Popular opinion is often diametrically opposed to what I think and feel is “good” – just look at the legions of fans who tune in for “The Jersey Shore”, but “Terriers” couldn’t find an audience? I and the masses do not exactly see eye to eye regarding the quality of our entertainment.



I often don’t see eye to eye with the masses either, so I feel your pain there.

When it comes down to it, bad writing is bad writing. It doesn’t really matter how many boobs you throw in to distract people.



csdaley says:

While I do think DC blew it with these two books. I don’t think you can say the reboot has failed because of them. Certainly they missed a chance to get some new readers on board with these books. Let’s however try to keep the false corelations down. The Teen Titans cartoon was out at a time there was a Teen Titans comic. The comic never sold 2 million copies. therefore to say they are missing a chance to draw those readers in rings false.

Again I am not arguing the merits of these two books. I just wish people would not make blanket statements or generalizations of the whole reboot. Especially if you haven’t read all of the comics. Comics have been dying on the vine. Movies and cartoons have not helped sell anything. Based on sales alone the reboot has been a success so far (although issue 2 sales will really start delivering some truth).

I actually think price point of comics are a far bigger problem when it comes to attracting new readers. There have been some great comics with lots of publicity which haven’t sold as well as the worse selling comics of the 70′s and 80′s. If I was disappointed with anything in this reboot (besides the Red Hood book which I hated) it was DC failed to capitalize on the publicity and the digital platform to drive sales up with new non-comic readers. There have been a lot of good books in this reboot. Some of the best things out of DC in a long time.

Again I understand the anger over these two issues and the problem in general across many comics books. I just don’t think the Teen Titan Cartoon can be used as an argument. It has always been there and it has never driven up sales. Neither did the Green Lantern movie or Batman or Sider-Man. Comics have priced themselves of the entertainment market. I understand how it happened but they need to figure it out in a hurry.



It is a missed chance to draw in those readers. All of them? Probably not. But a lot of comic book readers got their start as cartoon/movie watchers and then came over to the print medium — I sure did! If I’d seen an X-Men comic back then like these two comics, I would not have become a comics reader. I would’ve stuck with my cartoons and left it at that.

There’s a lot of problems with comics other than just shitty writing, but the ones that are horribly written aren’t doing the industry any favors. Instead of ignoring the Teen Titans show or the movies or anything else since they haven’t driven up DC’s sales in the past, the real question to ask is why? What is the comics industry doing wrong that’s making people not want to read the comics that tie in with shows and movies they enjoy? Could this reboot have captured some of that audience? Absolutely. I’ve had several people comment that they were cartoon fans who heard about the reboot, thought about picking up the comics since they already knew the characters, saw this and left. Sale lost. Customer lost.

Price is a problem, but it’s a complicated problem. And a lot of people — myself included — are still willing to pay that for quality comics. I will happily pay even $4.99 for a well-written comic. I don’t want to pay even $2.99 for crap. Offer quality, and people might think your price point is worth it. Offer crap, and come up empty handed.



csdaley says:

I do think buying the books which you think send the message which best represents your tastes in comics is an important one. If this means buying none great but if it means buying only a few great also. The reboot has been inconsistent but I expected that. It was a huge task.

I mean I just finished writing my review for today’s Teen Titan’s comic. I was expecting to hate it because it was written by the same fellow as Red Hood. The first issue was actually pretty good. I marveled at how it could be the same writer. Makes me want to go back and check who all the editors on the various books are. Maybe certain editors have a sensibility I prefer.



I just can’t bring myself to touch any of the New 52 now. It’s a personal preference, but I’m just really disgusted with DC as a whole right now. Mainly for their complete lack of any real response to this. Look at the ratings? I did. It was rated Teen. So as long as a teenager is seeing it, objectification is A-okay? Gee, thanks for that update, DC.

If I buy anything from DC, it’s going to be pre-reboot trades like Ed Brubaker’s Catwoman. I’d rather support that than anything they’re putting out now.



judah says:

I can’t say that the reboot has failed, and that new readers haven’t been brought in….I’ve been reading comics since I was 8-yrs-old–which is now 31 years ago–and I’ve never really read any mainstream DC books (meaning my only DC exposure had been Vertigo books, and a bit of the Darwin Cooke CatWoman run)…I’ve always been a “Marvel Zombie.” Now, however, I’ll be picking up BatWoman, Animal Man, and I,Vampire…maybe even Wonder Woman, though I have yet to get to read that #1.

So, despite missing the mark with a few of their books, overall DC’s gambit to draw in new readers has been successful, at least with me.



It has had some success, but I still feel like it could’ve been more successful. They had a real opportunity to make something of this, and I don’t really feel like they were as in touch as they could’ve been.

And while it is getting readers, it’s also turning some away. It still remains to be seen which side will tip the scales and if they’ll be able to retain their new readers for a long period of time.



Taha says:

You’re so right. I’m actually planning a book which randomly talks about art in various forms, and how it works as expression, and this issue comes up at some point, and I have pretty muc hthe same viewpoint. What happens in the two comics mentioned is basically faceless fucking



Yeah, it pretty much is. Good luck with your book!



jb says:

Honestly, I’m not an avid comic book reader any longer (I only pop in for the occasional read), and I’m not going to pick up the reboot just because it is “sexy.”

Personally, I think you have a lot of very good points as to the crazy sexism now shown in the reboots, namely catwoman and starfire.

My big question is just this: Is the issue that they objectify women, ruined characters that were once actual characters (instead of just tits), or because DC doesn’t give two shits?

It seems like one of your complaints is “I’m exactly the sort of reader DC should’ve been courting with their re-launch” and that strikes a bad chord with me.

I’m a writer myself, and I’ll be damned if I want people telling me what I should be doing with my work – I’m sure you wouldn’t like it if someone came in and started up with “Your blog should be courting me with your new posts,” right?

From everything I’ve seen re: the reboot, I think you’re absolutely correct and these issues do not do anything good to broaden the dying comic book fanbase, but I just think the argument that “they should have pleased ME” seems a little pedantic.

Great blog post and thanks for your point of view!



I didn’t actually say they need to cater to me specifically. If I wanted that, I would just demand that someone bring back Hawkeye and Mockingbird, because that comic had everything that I, personally, could want. I said that I’m the sort of reader that they should’ve been trying to get with the reboot.

As I stated in the post, this wasn’t because I wanted all my personal hopes and dreams for a comic, but because I’m a reader who’s already reading their comics, just not their comics. It’s just basic marketing strategy. It’s why you see so many Pepsi commercials aimed towards Coke buyers and vice-versa. It’s easier to sell someone on your product if they’re already buying a similar product than if they’ve shown no prior interest in the sort of product you’d like to sell.

Furthermore, I’m also a writer. Would I want someone to tell me to write a book just for them? No. But I didn’t do that. I told DC to stop being sexist and respect their female readers. Would I expect someone to do the same thing to me if I decided to write sexist crap? Yep.

Everyone has the right to write want they want, sure. But sexism is not okay. Telling someone they need to respect a writer’s choice to objectify women is no better than telling a reader they have to respect a writer’s choice to negatively portray black characters. Telling a writer not to be sexist is not restricting them. It’s speaking out against something that’s not okay and has no place in decent writing.

I didn’t say DC should please me and only me because I’m an entitled fan. I said they should stop being sexist. Period. That isn’t a crazy things to ask. And as for whether the issue is that they objectify women or that they don’t give “two shits” — those are basically the same problem. They objectify women and, from the response I’ve seen from DC, they don’t care. That comes from the same root issue, and neither side of that sits well with me, as a woman or a comic book reader.



Anne says:

Thank you SO much for this. As a former comic book fan, you have written everything I’ve pretty much felt about comics in general. I basically stopped reading and caring about comic books for the exact reasons listed.

And I am tired… so tired of male fans who just don’t get it. Who don’t, for even a moment, try to actually put themselves in a woman’s place and understand why we might be bothered by this. You say comic books are about fantasy, that it isn’t real… but the messages behind those images ARE. They are something women have to deal with every, single day. It is the illustration equivalent of having some asshole drive by you as you’re walking down the street and screaming, “NICE TITS!” As a woman, that isn’t a compliment. It’s casual degradation. A woman isn’t a person with feelings, she’s a set of genitalia. She’s a pair of bouncy boobs and nothing more. And for once, I’d like a guy to actually admit how fucked up that is, without any stupid qualifiers to mollify male pride.

We aren’t just someone’s sexy girlfriend or fuck buddy. We aren’t pieces of meat, god damn it. We are human beings. Just because we don’t have a prick, doesn’t make that fact less true. And just because a man does have a prick, doesn’t make him or his opinion any more important than mine.

Now if only a few men out their would shut the fuck up for once and listen.



You’re not alone. I get so sick of men who catcall me and then get offended when I don’t thank them for it. Like having a stranger yell at me about my body is somehow something I should be happy about. I’ve always felt like it’s bad enough the stuff I have to face outside of comic books, why what’s supposed to entertain me make me feel the same way?

One thing that has made me feel a little bit better, though, is how many men have come out and said in the wake of all of this that yes, this is bad. And no, they don’t want to be a part of it. I’ve had way more men tell me that they’re just as turned off by this as I am and that pandering to them with objectification insults them since they also want real stories — not just boobs. I’m trying to hold out hope, because I do love comics, that maybe now with all this out in the open that people will stop ignoring the issue and realize it’s real and it’s not a benefit to anyone.



Ok, I’m a dude. Being a dude, I do admit that I love a beautiful woman in skimpy clothes.

That being said, I agree 100% with everything you’ve said here. Starfire’s newfound promiscuity isn’t really a turn on, it just makes me uncomfortable. If sex is part of the plot, great, but please, make it an actual part of the plot, not just an excuse to try and wrest $4 out of a fanboys suddenly tighter pants.



Yup. Well said, dude. ;)

There’s so many ways that these comics could’ve been written to be actually sexy. But that wouldn’t have been the easy way…



orion says:

Great article. Articulate, well reasoned, grounded and smart. Thanks for taking the time to share your personal experiences, they framed the problem very well. Just want to say I’m one more guy whose been reading comics forever that completely agrees with you. Yup, well done.



Thanks! I’ve been really happy to see so many guys who feel like you do about the issue. It restores my faith in the fandom. :)



Wonderful article. For some reason this got me thinking about the comics I’m reading right now (I’m doing this a lot lately, I don’t know why). This comics include Hulk (starring Red Hulk), Journey Into Mystery (starring Child Loki), and Booster Gold (starring Booster Gold). These three are fairly respecting with women. There are few women, but they feel like people, even Annie the LMD who’s a robot (and the most sensibly dress)



Thanks! There certainly are a lot of comics out there that do respect women. I hope the bad ones don’t end up overshadowing the good.



Kamryn says:

I love this. Could I print this out and give it to other girls? (Crediting you, of course :) )



Sure! I’m glad you liked the post. :)



Great post. I can’t tell you how depressing the treatment of Starfire is to me as a comics fan, especially as a long time Titans fan. It is so awful that I actually don’t have the energy to bother blogging about how awful it is, and I’ve written at length about some of DC’s dodgiest decisions about female Titans – especially Terra. So I appreciate the time you took to refute the bullshit responses that defend the decisions that went into making these books. They are a disgrace to the medium. And that’s not because sex and mature themes don’t have a place in comics. They do. Even pre-code stuff like what appeared in the 50s (much of which is still very disturbing) had its place. But the material in these two books wasn’t even subversive. It was lowest common denominator trashporn entertainment. I’ve been reading DC comics since the early 70s. These are the worst superhero treatments I have ever seen coming from that company, worse than the 90s, and that is saying something.



These are especially terrible, especially that Red Hood comic. It’s been a while since I’ve seen something so blatantly offensive in comics that my jaw has literally dropped. I’m fine with sex in comics when it’s handled well, but this is just trash. It’s everything people accuse comics of being and everything I usually try to argue they’re not.



[...] of the saddest things to me about the issue I discussed here, is that, as a member of the Teen Titans, Starfire is a character who was marketed to kids. And not [...]



To be honest, I didn’t get into comics until I was older when I actually COULD read. I couldn’t fluently read until I was 12. After that I took it and ran with it for a while until I exhausted myself completely of wanting to read for a few years, for studies or pleasure for that matter. I really haven’t been much into reading the DC or Marvel comics however, I still grew up with these guys though! I remember watching most of the “Animated” series of these because like you I LOVE my cartoons and I STILL do! I remember He-man, She-ra, Transformers to some degree though not much, Batman the Animated Series (old one), X-men (Rogue and Gambit my favorite toons!) and many others when I was just a wee lass. As I got older I watched things like Thunder Cats, Voltron, and other series. However, I know if I were in your shoes I’d be just as appalled if not flat out insulted as well considering most of our society has largely for many years been based solely on the concept of “Sex Sells”. As of late though, I find that many people are becoming more and more desensitized if at all to what’s already present in our media and entertainment, to the point we would literally HAVE to have people walking around “Nude” in regular programming which – I don’t know, could be good and bad depending. For many parents I am sure this sounds like their worst nightmare. Whatever happened to go old, “Use your imagination to undress her with your mind?” or “She’s wearing just enough to leave the rest to imagination as to what could happen”. But I know it burns me up just as any good woman to see myself constantly objectified on a regular basis whether in my everyday life by the people I meet or by the media trying to tell me what is acceptable (which I think you just gave me an idea for a good rant/post, lol). As you more or less said, we aren’t going to simply just “Roll over” and play nice. If anything we are going to “Get busy”!

Something I’d like to share as personal experience concerning people and Comic Book stores is this. Most of the Comic Book stores I have been to, the owners have been very kind and nice to me. It’s often their “Patrons” that have problems with me and WHY?! Because I’m a girl?! Because I don’t have a penis and they do?! I’ve had young men give me dirty looks when I walked over to the Miniature tournaments just to “examine” their minis to see what the colors schemes were so I might get inspired and have more ideas running in my head for how to paint my brothers army. You should have seen some of the dirty expressions I got, the look of, “Why are you here? Go away! You don’t belong here”. Ye-ah a cute girl comes over and you don’t even want so much as to say “Hi” you teenage twits!? GOD! What’s wrong with you people?! That’s the other piece of the puzzle I don’t understand. If the opposite sex comes over and shows interest, why not find it “Amazing” and accept it as a blessing she even came over at all. Maybe she can be your girlfriend if your nice and make a good impression. Shesh! I remember when nerds actually got all flustered and EMBARRASSED that a girl came over to ask them what they were doing or came over JUST to observe. I can’t understand what is wrong with these young men these days.

One last thing, if your interested in finding out a rough percentage of who out there doesn’t like the new changes, why not have a poll? Might be interesting to see the results.

Keep preaching your mind sistah and don’t let the “Brick Walls” get to you!



Kalee says:

I’ve been there too. At one point I met a friend of a guy I was seeing. It was brought up as “cool” that I played video games and was at the time on yet another Final Fantasy game. The friend’s reaction was to try and knock me down a peg as a faker by quizzing me on what I knew about the previous FF’s I had played. I got the answers correct, until he asked me one of the characters parent’s name. I told him I couldn’t remember, what was it? He looked at me and stuttered and said the thinks it starts with a B. That jogged my memory and I shouted out the name. But he had asked me a question he didn’t even know the answer to! All this to prove I wasn’t a real gamer. It’s been years since and I can say while I was happy I bested him but I shouldn’t have stooped to even try and prove myself. Would he have put another guy who was a gamer through a Q&A test? Now that has not been the majority of my interactions, which by far have been very positive but I always feel the pressure to prove I can play and do it well. Thankfully I started young and really enjoy learning so gaming was always self taught but I’ve always seen enough girls around guys be completely humiliated and shut down from joining in the fun. One girl seemed to have an actual interest in Super Smash Bros yet her boyfriend handed her a controller, then handed her her ass as he proceeded to just beat her around the level. Frustrated she walked away with a huge dislike of the game and that killed me. I pulled her aside and started teaching her myself, yeah she wasn’t amazing and wouldn’t win battles with the people I played against but at least she retained the interest and I wouldn’t be where I am without the practice I’ve had. Everyone should be welcome to enjoy comics, games, cards, action figures, and everything else.



I have no idea where you and gw3n4th3pe0ple meet these kinds of guys, Kalee. I used to work as a video game tester, and, good god, whenever a new single, female tester joined our outfit, she usually wouldn’t stay single for long. ^_^;



I believe a good old healthy fashion bit of “competitiveness” is fine. I actually have fun with male friends saying I could beat them with Sigfried (i.e. Nightmare) in Soul Caliber if they want to prove their skills to me. lol That would kill me to, if I say some girls boyfriend kick her butt just to discourage her from either liking the same things as him or whatever ulterior motives he might have in general that are less than honorable or noble.



Thanks!

I’ve wondered about guys like that, too. I had a guy in a book store once stand in front of the graphic novels and refuse to let me get to them even when I asked. When I finally got him to move out of the way, he looked at the Wolverine comic I took off the shelf and said, “Typical. Girls never have any sense to buy any good comics.” (I’d actually just pulled out that comic because I wanted to read one page I’d heard about, but I bought it after that just to spite him.) And even some of the better meaning people I’ve run into in comics stores have immediately started recommending comics they think are “better for girls” to me and then seemed absolutely shocked when I said no, I was hear for the latest issues of my favorite superhero comics. One guy actually asked me if I was sure. Yep, pretty sure I know what I read every month, thanks!

I’m also pretty sure that these guys who see a woman who’s into the same things as them as a threat and not someone they can connect with are the same ones who get so angry because they can never find girlfriends.



I think you’re definitely on to something there. I mentioned this blog to a male friend of mine recapping on a story I had told him once about what happened when I did go into the local comic store where I used to live and he said just about the same thing. I also feel it might be because of one too many times they were possibly rejected as well possibly by girls they liked. It’s horribly unfair to judge an entire group based on the actions of a few. I know we aren’t all mean, cruel, heartless bitches. What’s sad about this whole situation is that most of my friends happen to be male cause I just don’t relate well to most females unless they are fellow female “Gamer Chicks”, Comic Chicks, or something of that nature. Other than that, I can’t stand the rest of them more or less unless they prove themselves good people, but I’m always willing to give them that chance.

I’ve never had people try to flat out recommend stuff to me when I’m at Comic Book stores. Then again I usually know what I want much like you and go straight for it. No one typically gives me a hard time. Recently I went into the local Comic Shop in Olympia, WA and I found it terribly cute that one of the Gamer Guys was TRYING in an indirect sort of way to get my attention and introduce himself to me, but he opted for introducing himself by name to two of my male friends that were with me. He tried talking Inu Yasha with me instead and a little about Yu-gi-oh! I thought it was cute! Not to mention so was he. lol I actually hope I get to see him there again sometime so maybe we can have a proper conversation when I have time. :)



“I also feel it might be because of one too many times they were possibly rejected as well possibly by girls they liked. It’s horribly unfair to judge an entire group based on the actions of a few. I know we aren’t all mean, cruel, heartless bitches.”

Honestly, those guys need to get their priorities straight. I reserve my hatred and bile for people that actually do something to me and don’t engage in the social equivalent of preemptive strikes. Though given my own personal experiences, I half suspect that there’s some kind of secret sorority of mean, cruel, heartless bitches out there that has screwing me over as part of their initiation. ^_^;

“I’ve never had people try to flat out recommend stuff to me when I’m at Comic Book stores.”

That depends on what you’re looking for. What do you go for in comic book stores?

“That would kill me to, if I say some girls boyfriend kick her butt just to discourage her from either liking the same things as him or whatever ulterior motives he might have in general that are less than honorable or noble.”

The basis of a good relationship is having something you’re both passionate about in common (well, at least for me, anyway). While I’d admittedly get irritated if I had a girlfriend who kept kicking my butt all the time in video games, that’s what co-op mode is for. ;)

” I thought it was pretty cool since I used to think I’d go into the industry as a character designer largely, but I found a different calling and have been trying to follow that instead. I still draw as a hobby though as you hopefully could tell by my gallery.”

It’s good you found your calling. I’m still looking for me. Maybe it has laryngitis. ;)

If you ever decide to go for the character designer angle, you should consider applying in Montreal. We have a ridiculous amount of software development studios down here. Everything from Electronic Arts to THQ to Eidos/Squaresoft.



Lunar, I’ll go ahead and answer that question here anyway. I was living in NW Florida and it was TBS Comics. Even though it’s owned by a lovely woman and she has some female employees, that doesn’t seem to stop some of the male nerds from being rude pricks. I actually used to date a game developer for awhile here in Washington some years ago. I thought it was pretty cool since I used to think I’d go into the industry as a character designer largely, but I found a different calling and have been trying to follow that instead. I still draw as a hobby though as you hopefully could tell by my gallery. lol



@Lunar Archivist:

You know I don’t doubt that there are some girls that do, DO things like you mentioned for kicks as part of their initiation. One reason why I am glad that when I actually DID go to college, it wasn’t a regular ole college with a Sorority. I can’t STAND people like that. lol And so as not to incriminate myself too much further – I will just say – I wouldn’t be able to be held accountable for what I may or may not do if I were in one. lol

“That depends on what you’re looking for. What do you go for in comic book stores?”

I usually actually look at the mangas’. I have about five collections I still need to complete and finding the rest of the books can be a pain in my ass. I also look for anything I know that is collectable for like Shadowrun, DAWN (I also have three of the book-comics Lucifer’s Halo, Return of the Goddess, and Three Tiers), and other various items I think are made of awesome and win. There are VERY few comics I’ve actually read and like. I’ve read a bit of “The Boys” and while I do enjoy it to a fair bit – it’s one of those ones I’m not crazy about. I do have two P.B.R.D. comics I still need to read. They did look interesting and I’m pretty sure I’ll enjoy them. I also have a copy of “V for Vendetta” and “Watchmen” but still need to read through them completely.

“The basis of a good relationship is having something you’re both passionate about in common (well, at least for me, anyway). While I’d admittedly get irritated if I had a girlfriend who kept kicking my butt all the time in video games, that’s what co-op mode is for. ;)

I’d say there’s some merit to that. I can think of one man I dated that I’m still VERY good friends with, who shared a VERY big passion of mine, actually maybe even two or three and we got along very well. Still do. I like co-op mode far better to be honest. That was always my favorite part of playing games like “Halo” or “Gauntlet Legends” even though “Gauntlet” you were encouraged to play with more than one person at a time.

“It’s good you found your calling. I’m still looking for me. Maybe it has laryngitis. ;)
If you ever decide to go for the character designer angle, you should consider applying in Montreal. We have a ridiculous amount of software development studios down here. Everything from Electronic Arts to THQ to Eidos/Squaresoft”

Meh, if I ever do it’s not going to be the original way I thought. It will be more like something that happened to Ayame Kojima. I don’t think I’ll be shooting for that Dream again since I still need some serious work with my anatomy. As I said, I more or less do it as a hobby. If I did it for money, I don’t think I’d enjoy it as much. I despise deadlines as it is anyway and I don’t like to rush my art. lol



Gantz Playboy says:

OMG! – You’re bitching because Starfire is now “Sexualized” and not the squeaky clean girl from the cartoon?? You do realize she was ALWAYS ‘Sexualized’ in the comics?? The Cartoon (for Kids!!!) deviated from the Norm! But lets go another step further. The Cartoon version was created for Japan audiences FIRST and later dubbed into English second – Have you seen ANY “average” Anime?? even the un-edited “Sailor Moon” had nudity, girl-girl love, and sexual overtones! “Teen Titans” was basically a Japanese joint venture with American DC.

But I’m sure if NEW Starfire was a Lesbian or was uber- P.C. – you’d just say she was “Progressive”. But NO, Starfire is a Minx with a Playboy models body and the appetite of an Emotional Nympho – GOOD!! makes her interesting says “Not for Kids!!” I personally am NOT attracted to her “orange look” and was always more of a Raven fan but I like that DC is making a Bold choice and I was worried that DC was getting ‘soft’ & PC with putting pants on Wonder Women and having Catwoman wear that zip-up body suit in previous years…Teen boys want a little “cheesecake” (Sorry!) – Japanese Anime has done this for YEARS!! Video game females are quite often sexualized. Marvel certainly knows how to exploit it’s “X-Men” female cast sexually….I am totally stunned it’s taken DC this long to try this.

Last – you forget the obvious character progression of starting her on Book #1 as Overtly Sexual – think about it, she can’t stay over-sexed for years (even that would get old!) isn’t it obvious that as she learns & grows and battles & conflicts with others that she’s going to have character moments of “self reflection” and eventually see herself as more than a Sex object??…You read 1 Friggin’ Issue (its an INTRO!) How do you DC isn’t going to “Evolve” her further??…maybe her Sexually attitude will become a curse? Maybe it’s her strength? maybe she’s under a spell?? She did Lose her Memory right?? To simply call her a Slut & say she’ll ruin the character forever is asinine and judgemental of DC & the writers….I’m sure there’s a Plan!! and I’m 70% certain it doesn’t end with her being a Slut. If she’s still an undressed hussey by issue #10-14 I’ll be Very Surprised!.

YOU Mss.Snarky are the reason I Stopped reading comics in 2003. Injecting “real world” values into Fictional characters. That’s why I escaped into Japanese anime. ALL story, All Characters, all expression, and ZERO Moral Bitching!! No politics or “Social Justice” (a’la America Bashing & Hidden Lifestyle comments). I left comics when the Justice League were talking about the War In Iraq (they called it something else). Plus, who pays for comics ($3-$5 a book for 20 pages of a multi-part story) when you can Download SUBBED Anime & Manga for FREE!! – If a half naked Starfire can’t boost sales for DC eventually they won’t PRINT comics anymore!! – it’ll all be Online (with censored & UNcensored versions) trying even more ‘stunts’ just to get people to even look at it (let alone pay for it). You better pray Naked Starfire brings DC readers & sales or it’s gonna be not worth printing at all in about 3-5 years.

I personally loved the cartoon Starfire but that’s the Animated Series – everyone knows Comics are “cannon” and sorry but Starfire likes Sex!! Lot’s of nice girls do! Me personally I always had a little crush on Raven and if she’s Emo in one series or a Sex Bomb in another I’ll pick the one I like best & treasure it. She’s NOT my character and I realize her fate & image is “subject to change” – many stories, many versions, many artists, many fans! DC is trying to make a buck here!!! it’s a recession and the books don’t sell themselves – time to go back to what works – SEX $ELLS!! if only for alittle while – I’m sure she’ll get bored of it eventually. It’s a woman’s right to “change her mind” readily and often depending on her mood is it not??



Okay, yeah, that was a crazy rant that made all of no sense and had little, if anything, to do with my actual post. What I ACTUALLY said was I had a problem with objectification, not sexualization. I would tell you that maybe you should re-read the post and possibly look up those words, but given that you think there’s no social commentary in any manga, you clearly have a huge problem with context, so I’m not even going to bother.

You, sir, are an unintelligent crazy person. Please go back to watching your illegally downloaded tentacle porn and let the grown-ups have a decent conversation.



NorthernThoughts says:

I will give you one point on this, that there has a noticeable change in Starfire’s behaviour. After rereading that section, she seems far colder now, which may or may not be a result of her painful break with Dick Grayson and her partnering with Jason Todd, BUT, I dare you to read the comic again and pay attention to what she says about humans, and what Jason says about how she sees humans. Gantz is right in stating that Starfire is indeed a sexual creatue, but you are wrong in saying she is being objectified. In fact, she is the one objectifying her team members, objects of HER pleasure to do with as she pleases. She is the one who proposes sex, then makes it clear to Roy Harper that love had nothing to do with it.

Previously, her sexuality went hand-in-hand with her affection for Dick Grayson, but now you see that sexuality completely lacking any affection. Once again, look at previous work by artists like Adam Hughes is you continue to doubt that Starfire is a very sexual creature. Hopefully this will change when Grayson makes his inevitable appearance, but we’ll see.

P.S. Finally got around to actually reading the whole comic, and not simply the offending section, and I actually enjoyed Catwoman #1. She no longer has a daughter, and it’s clear that she has strong romantic feelings for Batman, highlighted by her comments on the “metallic taste” of his lips that she’s grown to love. Batman also seems far more concerned with her safety now than previously (probably hinting at his romantic feelings as well).



No, I’m not wrong. Her porn poses, Jason and Roy congratulating themselves on sleeping with her, her inability to even remember the names of people she’s slept with, the boy taking a picture of her in her bikini and wanting to post it on the internet — these are all examples of her being objectified by the writer and artist for the sake of the reader. If you had read my post without going off on me about who I am as a person and what my intentions are, you may have seen my point more clearly. My point was that she’s objectified fan service. And I’m not wrong about that. You may not get it, but that doesn’t make me wrong.

You’re not going to convince me that I don’t know what I’m talking about, or that I’m simply stating my opinion on my blog because I want to score points with other women. Any constructive discussion I could’ve had with you was ruined the moment you came to my blog, insulted me, and accused me of being an opportunist and a hypocrite without knowing a single thing about me before this blog post. You don’t know what I’ve written before this, what discussions I’ve been a part of. You have no idea what my background is, what I’ve studied, what I do in my every day life outside of keeping a blog. You’ve shown yourself to be argumentative, ignorant, and completely unwilling to have a normal, adult discussion. All you want is to yell your version of facts at everyone and expect them to bow to what you clearly, and erroneously, believe to be superior intelligence. And when someone dares to point out that no, you’re wrong — because believe me, you are, on so, so many levels — you throw a complete and total fit. It’s completely unappealing behavior, either on or off the internet.

It would be nice if you were capable of setting aside your preconceived notions and read what I had to say and who I am and actually comment intelligently on the issue, but instead you seem determined to continue to come on here and keep arguing about something that you are sorely lacking in understanding of. I could take the time to explain to you what objectification is and how you’re very, very wrong to think it’s the same thing as sexualization, but from your previous complete inability to do anything but rant and rave and scream you’re right about everything, I’m not going to waste that time when I could be doing better things. Which, quite frankly, is just about anything.

I can tell this is an issue that’s very upsetting to you, although why on earth you’re so offended that someone else would dare to be offended is beyond me. I think what you need to be doing instead of lecturing people in comments sections on the internet is assessing why you have such a problem with women who speak their mind about what makes them feel belittled. Is it really that much of a problem for you that a woman might not like to read something that’s all porn shots and sex that might as well be with a blow up doll? Is that all sex is to you? Because if it is, it would explain both your anger towards women who aren’t okay with that as well as your complete inability to see the very valid points being made in this discussion.

I think it’s really time for you to go elsewhere, like I asked you to do before. I’m not interested in your thoughts on the matter, as you’ve already proven them to be ignorant and full of anger. I’m sure you can find some like-minded men who are neither “pathetic” nor “beta males” to grunt along with you.



For @NorthernThoughts

DC acknowledges they went overboard:
http://blog.newsarama.com/2011/09/28/dc-officially-acknowledges-starfire-controversy-on-twitter/

And a 7 year old realizing Starfire isn’t the “hero” she once was.
http://io9.com/5844355/a-7+year+old-girl-responds-to-dc-comics-sexed+up-reboot-of-starfire

Although I’m sure you can or will argue, “DC’s just trying to protect their image from twits like us,” the fact is that there’s a problem here. And it’s not us.



Gantz Playboy says:

See now I toke NO offense to your reply as I can tell by reading it that you’re taking this WAAAAY too seriously. This blog was posted on http://www.SankakuComplex.com (a Troll Heaven…or rather, it used to be) and you clearly don’t understand the difference between Manga & Comics.

Here it is… Comics dance around issues and used for “social commentary” – Manga is as bold, beautiful, nasty, sexual, off-beat, comical, or socially criticizing as it truly wants to be! – hence NEVER Politically Correct (there is no need – Just say what you want to say). Objectification is a word women use to say “I don’t like how you’re portraying women”. Or should I have used “Lookism?” or perhaps Feminist writer Laura Malvey’s “Male Gaze”. One persons “Objectification” is another persons ART, satire, or Liberation Expression. Would it be “OK” if a Women wrote & drew these titles and did the exact same thing?? would it really?? Get Over Yourself. You can sexualize & objectify Anything!

Here is where I found your wisdom –
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/forums/topic.php?id=11810

For someone who uses “Snarky” in her name you really need to accept the PC socializing rules and ‘word bondage’….oh yeah, “Bondage” people like yourself traffic in are crumbling fast. Your “Feelings” and worries about “Objectification” have been noted but I think we’re gonna let “Natural Selection” take it course and see what people really want and think about these new DC re-imaginings.



Oh, so I got posted on a board where people think phrases like “moral faggot” are acceptable, so that makes me the one in the wrong?

Go back to your immature troll board. I’m not impressed by you or your ignorant ranting.



dorkarama says:

Well said, Ms Snarky. What were DC thinking?
Oh wait, they were thinking, “the lonely fan boys will eat this right up.”
Sigh….
And the publishers wonder why sales fall year on year.



Yup, pretty much.

I’m really curious to see what the sales numbers will look like once the “new and shiny” part wears off the reboot.



dorkarama says:

Sales invariably peak whenever the latest gimmick is unveiled – the latest hero death in Marvel as part of whatever event is being promoted this quarter always causes a momentary spike in sales but it never translates into new, long term readers. DC’s reboot is apparently an attempt to attract new readers. Lonely, male readers.



Lij says:

Your post really touched home for me. As a kid growing up my role-models were the characters I watched on tv, particularly superheros. It didn’t matter to me whether they were male/female, their morals and actions inspired me to want to be strong and confident like them. A good chunk of my childhood was spent role-playing Sailormoon at my friends’ house (both boys), and we’d always argue over who got to be Venus. It was always a nice treat though to find a powerful female character, because it made me believe that women could be just as tough, dedicated, gritty, and witty as the next guy. Characters like Rogue, Cybersix, and Catwoman were wonders to me! As I grew older though, I couldn’t help but notice that an increasing number of females would be portrayed as damsels in distress, whiny, shallow, flighty, dim-witted, materialistic, over-sexulaized, overtly self-conscious and under-confident, and it actually made me feel ashamed of my gender. If anything, those insipid characters inspired me to avoid becoming them at all cost.

Sexy is good, when done tastefully. What happened to suspense? Personally, I’d rather the characters hold off on the strip-tease until it was pivotal to the story; less is more. Boobs and asses: If they are not core to the story, leave them out!

The worst though is that a large number of male readers don’t even realize that there is something wrong with what DC has done. DC is reinforcing the objectification of women to the point where the female characters do little more than pose in skimpy outfits for the benefits of the reader. Forget inspiring heroism and empowerment, these empty women now serve the sole purpose of getting off the majority of male readers. Do you know why fewer girls read comics? It’s because of shit like this. Nobody wants to actively read something that makes them feel like crap.

It’s a sad irony when a superhero comic reinforces and conditions its readers to a point of view that is literally detrimental to others. There are already enough of these conditioners in our media, and I don’t know how much more I can stand! I DON’T WANT TO BE OBJECTIFIED! It makes me feel sick, and grimy, humiliated, depressed, and more importantly scared. I’m scared that there will be a generation of young boys who grow up thinking that it is ok to look at women like objects, only there for their taking and pleasure. I’m not eye-candy, and the women in these comics shouldn’t have to be either.



Well said. I’m glad my post touched home for you. I never went for the damsels in distress either. Give me a woman like Sarah Connor in Terminator any day who’s willing to fight and protect herself. I want to read about women who make me feel stronger, not dehumanized — and I’m sure men would say the same thing about the male characters they identify with. So why can’t we have that, too?

Sexy suspense and a slow build takes good writing. Flashing a bra takes almost no effort. Quick, easy cash at the expense of good plots.

This is exactly why more women don’t read comics. I’ve had a lot of women respond to me and say they’ve already given up on comics, for just this reason. Why on earth would anyone think it was a good marketing strategy to drive readers off over something so pointless? Men are going to keep buying comics no matter what the female characters are like. If anything, the response I’ve gotten here from men has been overwhelmingly in favor of real characters, male and female, and less pandering. More men than not have said they feel offended when they’re told that all they want is T&A when really, they want an actual plot. So why does DC think this is what they need to be doing? I’d love for them to actually explain how they feel about all of this instead of just tweeting we need to pay closer attention to ratings. (Not helpful.)

I hope that people don’t let this just be a flash in the pan of a discussion and that people keep speaking out against an issue that’s gone on for far too long.



Frankie says:

I have tried to write a response to this three times now and fail at getting my point across each time. Ah well, I guess that’s why I read blogs instead of writing them.

Anyway, just wanted to say I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have written here. Like you I have been a comic fan since I was a kid, and I suspect I always be. It’s such a shame to see awesome characters like Catwoman reduced to little more than a pair of breasts and long legs. In recent years there has been much debate on the oversexualisation of women in comics. This wasn’t the way to address that DC!

Seriously, if you want to see cartoon boobs, there’s a whole genre of comic book erotica to explore. Please can we not fill the pages of our superhero comics with it too? The joy of superhero comics as a kid and young teen was that anyone could be a hero (or villain), with snazzy powers and silly outfits, regardless of gender. The further message I took from that was that anyone (including me) could be a hero in real life too. It was a powerful and positive message. So how about we let the next generation learn that too, instead of reinforcing the idea that women’s best and only real power is in their looks and sexuality. That’s a poisonous message for both boys and girls alike.



Exactly. Superhero comics are supposed to be about just that — heroes. There’s more than enough erotica out there to keep everyone happy. It doesn’t need to take over comics.

One thing that bothers me is that DC says that we need to look at the ratings, but these books are rated for teens. How does that make it any better? If I had a teenage child, boy or girl, this is not what I’d want them reading.



adri says:

hi
i just want to say i think you’re right.
i’m 28 year old male comic fan from the other side of the atlantic and have been reading comics since i was 12 years old. if i have to be honest i must admit that when i was about 15 years old, sexy psylocke could get me horny as well. but even if the art of a book might’ve attracted me in the first place, it were the stories that kept me buying it.
if the stories aren’t satisfying, sexy girls in swimsuits won’t be enough to keep your attention. 16 years later i’m still buying x-men comics and most of the time psylocke wasn’t even in them.
DC will learn fast enough through their sales charts that they made a big mistake aiming solely at horny 15 year olds.

furthermore i would like to say that over here where comics aren’t well known but strips are, buying comics could get you offended just as well, you didn’t even need to be a girl to experience that. but in the end it was all worth it



Sexy girls might get people in at first, but it’s stories that keep people reading. Comics are a visual medium, but they’re also a print one. They’re not there just to look at — they’re there to read as well.

I really wonder how long DC’s going to have this bump in sales if this is what they’re putting out.



“Something I’d like to share as personal experience concerning people and Comic Book stores is this. Most of the Comic Book stores I have been to, the owners have been very kind and nice to me. It’s often their “Patrons” that have problems with me and WHY?! Because I’m a girl?! Because I don’t have a penis and they do?! I’ve had young men give me dirty looks when I walked over to the Miniature tournaments just to “examine” their minis to see what the colors schemes were so I might get inspired and have more ideas running in my head for how to paint my brothers army. You should have seen some of the dirty expressions I got, the look of, “Why are you here? Go away! You don’t belong here”. Ye-ah a cute girl comes over and you don’t even want so much as to say “Hi” you teenage twits!? GOD! What’s wrong with you people?! That’s the other piece of the puzzle I don’t understand. If the opposite sex comes over and shows interest, why not find it “Amazing” and accept it as a blessing she even came over at all. Maybe she can be your girlfriend if your nice and make a good impression. Shesh! I remember when nerds actually got all flustered and EMBARRASSED that a girl came over to ask them what they were doing or came over JUST to observe. I can’t understand what is wrong with these young men these days.”

This I don’t get either. When I was a kid all the way up to the present day, whenever I met a girl who was into the same things I was, I thought it was AWESOME. Just recently, my girlfriend expressed an interest in watching some of my favorite movies, so I started exposing her to comic book films like Iron Man and The Dark Knight and she loves them now, can’t wait to see Thor and Captain America once I get the DVDs and is looking forward to the Avengers film. And that doesn’t provoke a “why are you invading my territory?” reaction with me, it provokes a “you are amazing” reaction.



Kalee says:

Thank you for a very well written post, it was everything I’ve always wanted to say about comics but I am not as eloquent. Growing up I too always loved cartoons, and when I was in school I’d always “play superheros” with the boys. I always looked for strong, fun, female characters to be and enjoyed the occasional “battle” where we would shout out what powers we were using to “fight” each other. I would look forward to the few hours I had home alone where I could thrown on Batman, X-Men, G.I. Joe, and I grew up watching reruns of the black and white Superman. When a game came out I wanted to play it. I still love my video games and look for ones with a female optional character. It saddens me when in this day and age we are still reducing female characters to a hot body. Sure I want attractive characters too but I want them to be strong and sexy, I want them to kick some a** in a fight. I don’t want bikini shots and no story. I don’t buy comics because I haven’t felt welcome to. I go in a card store and grab some magic cards and I am one of the group. I am in the game store and the clerks and I strike up conversation about Halo and other shooters and they never treat me like I am odd for being there. Comic books stores though, still seem to be a mans domain and it’s true they would get my money if I felt there was something for me. I don’t want hearts and flowers, I want action, fights scenes, and sure some hot hook ups. But why can men fight in pants and full costumes and women only in bathing suits? I guess the women, all of them have super powers to keep those outifts in place. I can’t even roleplay in those costumes because I’d have to tape every part of me them, and that would not make me feel sexy. Keep some babes for them men, I don’t mind, but why is it so hard to leave me a few women to look up to as well.



I’ve done a lot of my comics shopping online, for just that reason. I used to live near a wonderful store that never once made me feel like less of a customer or a person because I was a woman, but that hasn’t always been the case.

I’ve never understood the bathing suit style costumes. How do you even fight in those? You’d think they’d be riding up constantly. And if you’re going to be in a battle, why leave so much of your body exposed? That’s just bad strategy.

Some comics that I’ve been enjoying recently that haven’t been making me feel I’m being objectified are X-23 by Marjorie Liu, Ed Brubaker’s Captain America, and Kieron Gillen’s Generation Hope. A comic that was really great and had everything I could want in a comic plus a strong female lead was Hawkeye and Mockingbird. I’m still upset that one got cancelled, but it’s still available in trades.

There’s a lot of bad comics out there, but there’s a lot of good ones, too, and I make sure those are the ones that get my money.



Kalee says:

I’ll check those out, thank you for the recommendation. You might get a laugh from this http://jezebel.com/comics where it depicts “Why Cleavage Is Bad For Crime Fighting”.



It’s a well written piece. So thank you for that. So here’s where and why I disagree in what I hope is a clear and non offensive manner.

There are 52 new titles. To think that every title is going to be aimed at the widest demographic, is much deeper than wishful thinking. So while I enjoyed a great deal of the books, I didn’t like them all. Then didn’t appeal to me as a man, or a comic reader, or an adult, or whatever other demographic I fall into. I’ll even name them to see if there is some commonality: OMAC, Hawk & Dove, Men of War, Batman & Robin, Birds of Prey, Blackhawks, JLI, Suicide Squad, Legion, Legion Lost, Green Arrow, & Superman.

Now was I OFFENDED by any of these? No. But I can tell you that I was disturbed by the amount of brutal violence in the new 52 across the board. But oddly the most violent were not the ones I necessarily didn’t like. I’m an adult, so I’m mature enough to read a book, and decide if it’s too much for me.

I could easily say, that if you didn’t like Catwoman and Red Hood there are 50 other comics you might like but that’s too simplistic.
I might say that you grew up on Starfire and Catwoman being a certain way and I understand that you are upset, but that’s patronizing.
I might call attention to Batgirl, Wonderwoman, Black Canary, Starling, Batwoman, Wondergirl, Dove, and a host of other female characters that don’t come off a sexist, but that’s dodging the issue.
I could tell you that I found Red Hood to be a SATIRE of a buddy comedy that always has the girl they both fantasize about and fight over, but that doesn’t excuse Catwoman or make the issue any less true.
I could call attention to the fact that except for Teen Titans GO, Kori was always a Sex Symbol. I could call attention the fact that Catwoman was for a long time the only female villain and was also a Sex Symbol (Thank you Eartha Kitt), but that’s in the past in a less PC time.

So I think I’ll just say… I hear you. I don’t disagree with with you, but I don’t exactly agree either.

I enjoyed both those books and as a responsible adult I know they are male fantasy oriented. So I enjoyed them like my wife would enjoy a romance novel. It’s not REAL. Romance novels aren’t real either. MAINLY, Men respond to the visual, women to cerebral. (Though shirtless Vampires and Werewolves of Twilight might argue that point)

There are only so many lead female characters in the Superhero world so I understand when two (or three unless we’re ignoring Voodoo, because no one cares) are objectified and made unappealing to a segment of readers who could actually GROW the industry.

So I will make THIS comment – Tell DC What you DID LIKE so they can be aware to do more of that. It may not make Catwoman and Red Hood go away, but at least you’ll get more books you DO like.



Honestly, I don’t think saying hey, don’t have any books that treat women like sex objects is too much to ask. I’m fine with sex symbols (which I stated in the post), but not objectification. Having Starfire be nothing but a sex toy in porn poses and Catwoman not having a face for panel after panel while we do get good shots of her T&A is objectification. That’s not about a sexual woman — it’s about titillating a male audience.

That’s my problem. It’s DC being okay with putting books out with objectification and telling me, as a reader, that I’m not an audience they care about. Sex in comics? Fine. Just keep it in line with whatever the rating on the book is. (And if it’s not for teens, state that. I’m fine with that, too. I have no problem with more explicit sex in comics marked for adult readers.) But don’t treat women like sex objects. That’s not okay. For anyone. Ever.

I hope I helped clarify a little more about what my complaint is. Not every book has to be one that everyone enjoys. There are books that are well-written comics with positive portrayals of women, and they just aren’t for me for other reasons. But the reason a book isn’t for me should never be because reading it makes me feel cheap and less than human. That’s what Red Hood and Catwoman does to women. It’s not that sex and sexualization in comics is just not my thing. It’s that it was done here in a cheap, misogynistic, offensive way that belittles DC’s female readership.

So yeah, give me a sexy Catwoman. Give me a sexy Starfire. Go for it, I’m right on board. But give me a woman who is also sexy. Not a sex toy who exists just for male readers to feel titillated by.



Mike D says:

Hi,

First I would like to say that although I may not have agreed with everything you wrote, you are clearly a very intelligent person and a very talented and gifted communicator. Unfortunately these days, issues debated, ESPECIALLY on the internet so often fall to the base level of insult and generalities so kudos to you for rising above that. I will do my best to match that in my comments.

Have you ever tried to address your concerns with DC or any of the comic creating companies directly? You mention the story of the Happy Meals in McDonalds and although I empathize (more on that in a bit), that is the ignorance of an employee. The incident(s) you mention regarding your comic store visits and the commentaries on what you are buying and why you are buying it is the ignorance and intolerance of store owners/employees. I understand that the core of your points/concerns/observations are societal but it seems to me that the people that need addressing are the companies themselves who are actually producing the material.

I used to read “Dr. Solar” from Dark Horse. I am speaking within the past year or so. There was a scene early on in one of the issues I was reading that deeply disturbed me. They were trying to introduce a new head bad guy and were trying to illustrate how bad he was. There was a scene with a bloodied young woman limply hanging from ceiling restraints (her arms bound by chain above her head). The head bad guy said to his assistant something like “This one died to quickly, compensate her family. Go get me a new one.” I immediately stopped reading the comic and called/emailed Dark Horse. Of course I got a reply from a marketing rep saying they apologize for offending me and he will pass along my concerns to blah blah blah, you get the point. I have not read another issue of that book. I wish I could tell you that I stopped reading Dark Horse all-together but they publish Buffy and Angel and my will is not as big as my mouth :(

As far as my afore-mentioned empathy. I am a male in my mid 30′s. I have a cat. I am single. I love Broadway, especially musicals. Titanic is my favorite movie of all time. I express my emotions and I talk openly about my feelings. I am extremely sensitive. I cry sometimes and am not ashamed of that. I write movie reviews and actually chose “Crazy Stupid Love” over Cowboys & Aliens (due to a scheduling conflict I ended up seeing/reviewing C&A). It is not an uncommon occurrence in my life, either past or present to have a comment about being gay directed at me. A few years back someone I knew actually, seriously, asked me if I was gay. I am NOT offended by the question in and of itself but I asked this person why they were asking me that. His reasons were some of the ones I listed above in the beginning of this paragraph. I was offended by his REASONS for asking me. I, like you(pardon my presumption) would like to simply like what I like and not have to defend it or be questioned because of it.

I really like what you said about the fact that the comic world is about cheesecake and beefcake. Big muscles, big boobs are a part of the package (no pun intended) but the characters need to me more than one dimensional because that limited scope of thinking is not good for anyone. Example: 50 Girls 50 by Image. I really enjoy that book. Basic premise of the book is that Earth is in danger and space missions are sent out to get what we need to fix things. For some reason, only women are capable of fulfilling this mission (some sort of deal with 2 x chromosomes being able to survive the trip…). Yes, the women wear tight space suits and are all very attractive and shapely. BUT, they are also all highly intelligent science officers, pilots…..I fully admit that I like the book for both reasons. I don’t know where that places me in this larger debate.

I think I have lost some focus here so I will stop. Hopefully I have not made an ass out of myself :)



You haven’t made an ass out of yourself. :) I think you’re probably pretty much where a lot of men are in this debate if you like both the cheesecake look and the brains in female characters. At least that’s what I seem to be hearing from most of the men who have commented. (A few jerks aside.)

People definitely have tried to address DC. It goes about this well: http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/7985599811/panels

The problem with people like the ones in comic book stores who shut me out is that they’re part of a larger culture that seems to think women have no place in it. And when companies like DC put out stuff like this, it reinforces that and tells the men who would tell me to get out of a comic book store that they’re absolutely right.



Jen says:

Thank you for this post! I’m a woman who has never really been into comics, but I love animation and fantasy and stories about compelling female characters. I was excited about the New 52 when I heard about it, because I thought it would be a great opportunity for someone like me to get into comics. Turns out it’s a big fat NO.

So I’m wondering if Ms. Snarky, or other commenters, can recommend some GOOD comics. I’m intimidated by the huge continuities some of the major characters have built up over the decades. What would be a good place for a non-comic book nerd to start, where I won’t just find ridiculous objectification?



I can, actually! :) I just put up a post last night about good recs that don’t objectify women. I said they were good comics for young girls, but honestly, they’re just good. Period. A lot of them are self-contained minis or comics that you don’t need a lot of background to pick up.

http://mssnarky.wordpress.com/2011/09/28/looking-for-comics-for-young-girls-start-here/

In addition to those, one that I’ve been enjoying recently, is X-23 by Marjorie Liu. It’s not a comic I thought I’d like because it wasn’t really a character I liked in the past, but I love it. Another really good one with a whole group of male and female characters that’s still ongoing is Avengers Academy. It’s a good way to ease into regular Marvel continuity, too, since it’s a part of it, but has its own contained stories.

Two that aren’t current titles (though Young Avengers has its own mini right now) are Young Avengers and Hawkeye and Mockingbird. They both have trades available of collected issues as well as used singles you can find online. I do most of my online shopping on at midtowncomics.com, since they tend to have a good selection at good prices.

I hope that helped!



Jen says:

It does help, I will check out those titles! Thanks!



I posted some suggestions for Ms. Snarky myself earlier, but one other title that I personally adored (though it’s admittedly received mixed reviews) is “Sidekicks” by J. Torres and Takeshi Miyazawa:

http://www.indiebound.org/book/9781929998760

It’s a cute little book that takes place in a world where superheroes exist, but instead of being vigilantism, it’s a legitimate career choice and you have to attend school in order to get a degree to become a licensed costumed adventurer. It follows the everyday life of teenager Terry Highland and her female friends as they attend Shuster University and learns how to use their powers. As is usually the case, several characters are expys of existing ones, such as the principal being a thinly-veiled version of Wonder Woman in glasses and a businesswoman’s outfit. I suggest that you try before you buy, though. It’s not for everyone. :)



Very nice. Shared on my facebook, and passed along to Dan DiDio.



Thanks! I’m glad you liked the post and I’m happy you’re sharing it.



Freemage says:

One good thing about this whole mess–the two comics in question are so grotesquely over-the-top as to be genuinely indefensible. It’s impossible to ignore the truth of the complaints against them without sticking your head so far up your tush that you can lick your own tonsils. This is advantageous, as it helps bypass many of the usual arguments about interpretation and context that anti-feminists have used to diminish previously expressed concerns.

And one line from your original post gave me a thought. Someone with a bit of skill as an artist should do a panel-by-panel re-creation of Catwoman #1, but do it as Joker #1, instead. Yes, including the sex-on-the-rooftop scene. I’m sure it’d be a riot.



One would think, but there’s a lot of people who are going their very best to undermine the argument. A lot of it seems to be by ignoring the actual issue and pretending that the people complaining are protesting something else entirely, but they’re definitely trying to make us all look stupid.

Oh, man. That sounds hilarious. If I had any artistic skill past stick figures, I’d do it myself.



Daniel says:

As a comic-loving parent of a young girl not yet five, I cringe at the thought of her growing up and reading comics like Catwoman #1. DC can bluster and cajole and make excuses all they want to people–men and women–who find the objectification of women offensive but none of it can hide the blatantly obvious fact that objectifying women is EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID. Even if the creative teams at DC are called to task over by fans at a comic con, they’ll never admit to it. Take at least some comfort in the fact that many male comic fans are glad to have female fans to pal around with at the comic stores and that we do get offended by this sh*t as well.



The only official response from DC so far has been for people to look at the ratings on their comics. Uh, I did. They’re rated “teen.” So objectification is all well and good as long as the person reading it is at least a teenager?

I do take comfort knowing that. I’ve been really happy to see how many men have commented and told me how much this bothers them, too — a lot of them fathers of daughters, like you. I hope that if people keep speaking out like this that by the time your daughter is old enough to be buying comics on her own that she’ll be able to take them off the shelf and not have to wonder if she’s going to be reading a good story or feeling objectified.



Rebecca says:

Hi – I just… I love this and it made me want to hug you, kind of. Probably because I read it right after I read Michele Lee’s daughter’s response and THAT just about broke my heart with sadness and also pride, that a little girl can be so smart to pick up on those things; then you talked about when YOU were a little girl, and I remembered when *I* was a little girl reading comics – it was the late 80s and I got started with the 1978-1980 John Byrne run on Uncanny X-Men – and how things have changed and the writers have forgotten how to write genuinely wonderful, entertaining and smart comics that can actually appeal to women and be read by children. Anyway – yeah… my maternal instincts kicked in and I think I’m partly seeing you as eternally 5 years old, not getting that Transformers Happy Meal and wondering why, and hence the wanting to hug you. Heh, sorry, but long story short this is a wonderful post and so, so true.



Thank you. I’m glad that you were able to connect with my post. I can relate to how you feel with all of this. I have a little sister (she’s fourteen now, but in my mind, she’s still the same little girl I helped raise) and she loved the Teen Titans. Hearing her say about mournfully when she found out about this “new” Starfire “They ruined her!” absolutely broke my heart. I hate that DC can be that thoughtless towards the feelings of girls and women all so they can make a few more dollars off some boob shots.

I hope at some point, someone realizes that what comics need are not more T&A but more good, real stories that people can relate to.



Wonderfully written post. I especially agree with you regarding Starfire. Not being a woman, I do not have the exact same perspective which has caused me to seek out the opinions of erudite comic fans of the fairer sex. I appreciate your eloquent arguments and I can say that your post was enlightening.
http://ultranerdrevenge.blogspot.com/2011/09/stray-cats.html
I also blog about comics. These are my thoughts on Catwoman.



Thanks for reading and sharing your blog.



Well said, and it’s about damn time someone said it. DC, I love reading Batman comics and I love the characters, especially the villains. Especially the Joker, but that’s not really the issue here – except it sort of is, because every time you publish a story in which the Joker is nothing more than an odd-looking sociopath INSTEAD of a Clown Prince of Crime, God kills a hyena. Okay so maybe hyenas aren’t as cute as kittens but the metaphor still stands – either return the Joker to his roots or put the Clown away for a while until someone, like Paul Dini, comes along who GETS the character. Same for Harley, and moreso – let the poor girl evolve beyond Mad Love already!

And now I’ve come back to your point. Catsy, as much as I also love her as a female comic fan (and a Batman fan especially) isn’t the only female villain to be reduced to T &A. Have you noticed that Harley Quinn’s outfit has literally shrunken since her introduction to the comics nearly two decades ago? How did we go from “Girl in Sexy Jester Motley” to “Girl in even TIGHTER sexy Jester Motley” to “Girl in a skimpy Nurse’s uniform” to “Girl in what amounts to little more than a leather corset and some pants”? Oh right, Batman: Arkham Asylum and Batman: Arkham City happened, and if the Video Game audience (read, “Men”, because girls obviously don’t play video games since the uterus is an organ that detests game controllers) wants T & A, then by God we HAVE to pull them into the comics with T & A as well! In fact, there’s really only been ONE female Bat-Rogue that’s been, from the beginning, consistently given the T & A treatment and who it makes SENSE to give the T & A treatment to, and that’s Poison Ivy because it’s almost always been a part of her gimmick! But even SHE’S getting to be overly sexualized, and when you’re oversexualizing Poison freaking Ivy, then that’s a sure sign of a cry for help from a company that can’t think of anything else to do to pull readers in. Well-written stories? Compelling dramas between characters! BLASPHEMY! BURN THE WITCH!

And you know what? I completely understand your Fangirl issue. I’ve been bullied online for being a Joker fan AND having the audacity to have two X chromosomes during the period of Dark Knight Fever that gripped the whole known universe around 2008-2009. I’ve been discounted as little more than a Heath Ledger fangirl both in person and on a fanfiction that I wrote as a Take That to the obnoxious and implausible trend of pairing the Joker with female OCs in a rape scenario and having the OC fall in love with him. NOTHING pisses in my cheerios more than some idiot who thinks I’m only a Joker fan because Heath Ledger was hot and oh yeah maybe I’ve read that terrible Joker GN (which really wasn’t even all that bad to begin with if you take it for what it is). How come I never see male Joker fans suspecting that the only reason another male Joker fan likes said Harlequin of Hate is because they like Heath Ledger, or have ONLY seen The Dark Knight? How come gay male Joker fans aren’t called out on their fandom if they happen to think Heath was sexy? Oh right – they have that magical organ-cum-free pass we call a penis. And I swear to Heaven, Hell, Earth, Sky, Narnia, Gotham City, Oa, Space-Time, Gallefrey, and Skaro that pun was non-intentional.

And furthermore, what’s with the stereotype of EVERY, and I mean EVERY, female Joker fan who writes fiction absolutely adoring Batsy/Joker slash? Just because the theme is PRESENT in the comics as an UNDERTONE or JOKE does NOT mean that the relationship exists, and it does not mean I, as a female fan of the Mogul of Mountebanks who writes Jokerfic, enjoy seeing the Joker and Batman take rides on each others’ pogo sticks. NO. I am a straight ally and have lots of gay friends; I have a lesbian mother for Christ’s sake, and I STILL do not want to see Joker/Batsy slash, because I happen to find it very squicky to imagine a masked vigilante with potential issues of his own having sex with a psychopathic killer who doesn’t even HAVE a sexuality if you trust some sources. And also I do not want to imagine clown dick. And I don’t mean the kind that comes from putting Robin in face paint and a red nose.



Oh god, Harley’s costume. I couldn’t even begin to talk about what I thought of this month’s Suicide Squad, because it just comes out as incoherent babbling. I love Harley Quinn. She was hands down one of my favorite parts of the 90′s Batman cartoon. And now she’s some kind of what? Clown hooker? It gives me an eye twitch.

I hate that “oh, you must like this movie of character because you think X is hot.” It’s so demeaning. Men don’t get asked that, so why do we?

So much slash fiction is just some kind of weird version of what bad fanfic writers think sex between men is anyway. There’s a ton of it that doesn’t worry about characterization any more than anyone worried about it for poor Starfire. A lot of it is really actually pretty insulting to gay men since it presents such a messed up version of male sexuality. But that could be an entire other blog post where I could go on for hours…



[...] do have merit? Because from what I’ve seen it really seems that they do. (Source 1, Source 2, Source 3, Source [...]



Hey there Ms. Snarky! Thought I would let you know that I completely agree with what you said. In fact, I wrote up an article on my blog as well. I referenced your post in there. I hope that’s okay. http://epicworldpublishing.blogspot.com/2011/09/dc-comics-presents-sexism.html. Mine is probably not nearly as well written as yours, but the more people talking about this the better. I write my own comic book series and I take creating strong, confident and independent female characters very seriously. I don’t know why DC, one of the leading publishers doesn’t.



Thanks for commenting and thanks for leaving me a link to your blog. Your post is really well written and thought out, and you bring up some excellent points. It is demeaning to both men and women, and I agree with you on Judd Winick’s “defense” of the book. I’m a modern woman of 2011. I can’t remember the last time I had sex on a rooftop or showed everyone my bra.

I don’t know why DC doesn’t either. It’s as disappointing as it is frustrating.



Trevor says:

I know I’m a guy so I might not come close to understanding your stance in it’s entirety, but I do agree with most of your points and your angst. When I was younger I loved Starfire as a character from watching Teen Titans on TV. It wasn’t some childish crush or perverse sexual fixation or anything, it was the fact I actually found her identifiable. She was free-spirited, friendly in a genuine way, and even though she was a little odd she found a way to try to look on the bright side of life (having a grumpy dark haired older sister that blamed everything on me also helped). She also had energy beam/blasts and could fly, which I don’t have but really wish I did. I didn’t start reading comics in a more serious way until about 4 years ago, but I always had a found memory of that show and of her.

I generally enjoy crazy characters that struggle with their imperfections like Cable, Deadpool, Animal Man, and Genis-Vell (Secound Captain Marvel). But I also enjoy hyper-positive types like Starfire and Captain America. To see Starfire reduced to not just a sex object but a boring, lame, non-heroic, negative character that shatters my memories into dust (even if the show was non-cannon) kind of makes me feel sad for the next generation of children. If I wanted to look at skimpy picture of chicks I could use a search engine, buy a maxim, or just watch half the filth on TV.

As a man, the portrayal of Starfire also bothers me because I feel like it degrades my gender as well. The two male characters kind of remind me of the soon-to-be-frat-boys that I went to high school with as well. I’ll admit that when I see a woman with big breasts I notice. That’s biology. I’m not gonna be ashamed of that. But after a second or 2 realize that it’s not to polite to stair and remember that beyond that there is person there. Maybe I’m dog, maybe I’m not the best. But these guys seem like the type to hide a camera in their room and seduce chicks with booze or worse roofies.

The message this sends to young men (I have to assume that is the target audience) is that your not really a hero unless you sleep a slut. That it’s OK to objectify your female co-workers. That women are stupid nymphoes that don’t even remember you so who cares if you treat them like they’re disposable. It makes me wonder if men did ‘win’ (i use that term sarcastically) the sexual revolution when women started using stripper poles to work out. It makes me wonder if this comic was designed for date-rapists or rapists in general who claim that women really want it and don’t really care (ok maybe I’m taking it to far, but I wonder).

Not all men are horrible sexual deviants. Sure, we have larger parts of our brain on average designated for sex (2.5), and yes we have more testosterone on average as well. But that doesn’t mean we have to be a slave to that. This comic insults both genders. My only hope is that this is an attempt to point out obvious character flaws and then later eventually overcome them. But based on the shameless juvenile Jersey Shore mentality of the characters and the homicidal violence, I doubt it.

I hate being this negative. The Starfire I remember would try to calm me down and suggest listening to reggae or drink tea or draw robot-cars… either that or hurl a energy blast at DC. Either way would be far more satisfying than this drivel.



I don’t think it makes you sound like a dog at all. It’s only natural to check someone out — women do it all the time, too. The important thing is to remember, like you said, that there’s a person beyond the body. This comic completely fails to do that.

And it’s absolutely degrading to both men and women. Reducing men to idiotic frat boys who high five over a girl they both banged is demeaning to everyone involved. Roy and Jason in this are what you described, and the kind of guys that I would avoid at all cost — otherwise I might end up, at best, being called a slut on facebook, or, at worse, with a roofie in my drink.

I’d like to hope that there’s going to be something positive for these characters down the road, but I honestly can’t think of what it would be. The writing is so insanely terrible that I don’t see any way to salvage it. That comic was an absolute mess with no real signs of future redemption.

I hate being this negative, too, really. I think for now I’m just going to stick to the comics I already know and love since this is a hobby that’s supposed to be about enjoying myself. Not feeling degraded.



Matthew says:

What bothers me most about this is that it’s been looked at as a Women’s Lib issue, and a sweaty fanboy issue in almost every forum I’ve seen it discussed. My problem is that it is endemic of a larger problem with the DC relaunch. Now before I get to far into my point let me say that there have been some things in this relaunch that have actually made me pick up certain books for the first time in a LONG time, but that doesn’t excuse what has happened.

This relaunch was billed as being the answer to flagging sales and the graying of the comics marketplace, we were to be given updated versions of our favorite hero’s that would be equally recognizable to us long time readers and to new readers that DC hoped they could entice into buying comics. For years comics went after the coveted “Males 13-30″ and then the 90′s happened and the demographic shifted to largely focus on the Prime Time TV advertising demo: “Males 18-35.”

To bring in new readers we’ve gone back to pandering to the same demographic that hasn’t grown readership of comics, and we’ve done so in a way that has marginalized and offended a potential audience that wasn’t with us as well as turning away female readers who LOVED the product that DC was giving us before all of this mess. We didn’t go this route with our female characters for any reason than to appeal to baser instincts of a demographic and I think the collateral damage is horrible. As a reader I’ve seen worse in issues of Vampirella, but no one market’s Vampirella to kids, we were told this new DCU would bring back the YOUTH market. It’s appalling that this is what we’re telling the youth market about femininity, and telling them this by throwing GREAT female characters out with the bath water.

Substance has been jettisoned in favor of flash, and it seems that the big message that DC comic’s new 52 is trying to give to us readers is: “DC comics women like to get down.” Catwoman, Starfire, Lois Lane… the first issues have gone out of their way to make the fact that these women have sex into a major plot point. Not that they are strong, confident, sexy women but that they are explicitly sexually active and it is important that we as readers know that from the word go.

We can’t spend the first issue of Catwoman introducing you to the sly and wiley Selina Kyle, we have to show you that she’s built like a stripper and is oh so very hot for Batman.

We can’t use Starfire’s amnesia and social awkwardness as a way to relate backstory from Roy Harper to her as he fills in the gaps, nope just so they can get it on.

We can’t get a little lesson on why Superman IS Superman, or even a REAL glimpse of what Clark Kent is like in the New 52, we have to use that time to make sure that Clark super hears that Lois slept with some dude.

We were given surfaced, empty, lascivious, “brooding” 90′s style writing dressed up as the salvation of a brand that only really needed to be saved from itself.

Is it horrible that all I can think of is that this is what I should have expected when they hired Bob “Let’s do X-Men swimsuit issues” Harris?



Yes. All of this. Your response is a lot of the same problems I have with the reboot. It billed itself one way, and then gave us tepid results. And for all the comics that are good in the reboot, there’s stuff like this.

The owner of my LCS talked to me a few weeks ago, right before the reboot really kicked into gear, about how DC had appealed to shop owners and discussed with them how to sell these comics to the families who came in looking for comics to read. Yes, families. And now DC says, “well, read the ratings!” Well, DC, you told us you were going to try to bring families together with comics and re-energize the youth market. Since when do you do that with T&A, disturbing rooftop sex scenes, and amnesiac sex dolls? You don’t.

It’s not a horrible thought. It’s sadly, a pretty valid thought.



Matthew says:

I think the only real way to bring the youth market back into comics, and trust me this is a RADICAL notion, go back to printing comics on lower quality paper and put them back on Archie racks in places like 7-11. At 2.99 (or 3.99) a kid can buy three comics they can read a few times OR they can buy an action figure they can play with for years. Going down one whole dollar in price makes that a no brainer in favor of the comic, and putting them in market places where ANYONE is more likely to find it without having to seek it out is the best way to put your product in the hands of an audience who otherwise might not purchase it.

I’ve been reading comics since I was six years old, right after the Byrne relaunch of Superman. My older brother read comics, and I went to my LCS with him weekly to buy his books, but my first book didn’t come from a shop – it was purchased form a 7-11 Archie rack on my way home from a doctor’s appointment with my father. I didn’t look at comics in the shop when I was a kid, there was too much on the shelf for me to laser focus in and find something I wanted. On that spinner rack, however, I was able to zero in on a cover of an issue of Superman that intrigued me. I’ve been reading Superman ever since.

T&A, amnesiac sex dolls, gritty moodier versions of the Man of Steel and younger Smallville-esque Oliver Queen’s are small gimmicks amid the din of the larger gimmick of the relaunch. None of these things are going to bring in enough new readers to keep the medium growing for decades to come, all the gimmicks will do is alienate some of those who were on your side and maybe bring back some of the fans you’d hemorrhaged over the years for various reasons.

To grow the industry the formula is still pretty basic: Well written stories with broad appeal to multiple age groups and demographics + great art that serves the narrative + accessibility of product to the market that isn’t already seeking it out to begin with = new readers.



I think one of the big problems with the industry right now is that it’s just not easy to find comics, at least not the single issues. I remember buying them from the grocery store as a kid. I don’t think I ever went into an actual LCS until I was already in college. When I lived in in NYC, I could find a comic book store without any problem — there were several to chose from. But now that I live in a smaller area? There’s one LCS in my area, and it’s not very good. There’s places to buy online, but unless you’re already looking to buy comic books, you’re probably not going to go to the sites in the first place.

One thing that would also help is probably doing more to offer day and date electronic versions, but that seems to be something else that neither DC nor Marvel can be very cohesive in their ideas of how to make it work.



Roland says:

I am Fan Boy and honestly when I buy a book featuring a female lead I do it because I like the charcter. I read Zantana because she was mad cool and the stories were fun and interesting. Same for WW . Lara Croft is a fav of mine because she is strong and bad ass. I have no interest in a sexploitation comic. Sadly that is what Catwoman seems to be.



You and a lot of male readers. I wish DC would realize they’re not going to lose the fanboys by writing actual plots.



davidajcoates says:

This is an awesome post. You’ve gotten to the heart of the problem without losing it completely, which I know I’ve had trouble doing. Best of luck! D



Thanks! It wasn’t easy not to lose it, but it helps when I can delete my more ranting statements and start over!



Marian says:

This is an excellent break down of why these new comics are so offensive, and why the defense of them is at least as bad if not worse. From the comments of the very high ups at DC it is also clear that not only they fail to understand why these depictions are so offensive, but that they revel in it. In one stroke they removed just about all female (super)heroes who are worth admiring and emulating by a little girl, like the ones we were when we first discovered comics.

There many talented writers and artist that got kicked by the wayside in this reboot and who have demonstrated an interest in writing interesting, strong, human heroes and not in degrading them to objects for somebody else’s gratification.
I can only hope that some of them realise that with the appearance of the ipad and its clones there is finally a way to publich comics without having to go through the big two. I sure will not pay for more DC comics, so there is room for a subscription (or buying individual issues) of comics about superheroes that are worth reading and do not make me feel disgusted by tone and image.



Thanks. I get even more annoyed with the other fans telling me why I shouldn’t be offended than I do with the comics themselves. Not that DC’s oh-so-in-touch tweet about looking at ratings made me any happier.

There’s a lot of good writers out there writing stuff that isn’t with the Big Two. If DC wants to stay relevant, it needs to realize what worked in the 90′s won’t work now. People only have limited funds to spend on entertainment, and why spend it on this when they can spend it on good, well-written comics?



[...] to the above piece is from Sara McDonald, a writer from ComicsBulletin.com on her personal blog, Ms Snarky. This assumes you’ve already seen the worst of the comics and is text-only, talks about [...]



The problem is bigger than DC. I watched Suburgatory last night on TV and it did the same thing Catwoman did. They showed us the actresses Boobs and Ass and hid her face until a reveal. Again, it’s a comedy.

And no one has responded to my earlier question? Why is the violence OK but the objectification is not. And while we’re objectifying why don’t Vampires wear shirts?



I realize the problem is bigger than DC. Believe me, every woman who’s upset by the DC thing knows it’s bigger than DC. We’re pretty aware of our own objectification.

No one has said violence can’t be problematic. I also tried to read the rebooted Suicide Squad and was very turned off by the level of violence in a comic supposedly rated for teens. Even beyond the new look for Amanda Waller and Harley Quinn’s unfortunate transformation into a Juggalette, the level of graphic violence in that comic told me it probably was not for me. However, this was not a post about violence. It was a post about objectification of women’s bodies. Discussing one problem does not mean nothing else can be problematic. It only means that I was discussing one topic. You can’t discuss all of the topics all of the time. If violence is your top problem in comics, perhaps you should discuss it on your own time.

As for why vampires don’t wear shirts, I have no idea. I neither write nor read about vampires, nor am I a vampire myself, so I really couldn’t tell you about why they make any of their fashion choices.



varethane says:

I agree with you a lot. :C

The hell of it is, I AM a huge DC fan. I grew up on their comics (particularly Batman), and some of my favourite superhero stories came from DC. I still think Batwoman: Elegy is one of the best comics I’ve ever read. But recently it seems like the number of their titles I’ve wanted to read has been dropping, and now with this reboot I’m starting to wonder if I’ll ever pick up another new DC title again. I was really excited to see a Static comic but after seeing how he was treated in his short run with the Teen Titans before the reboot, and hearing the waves of reports coming in on the dubious quality of the new #1s…

I’ve been flipping through them in the shop since the first wave started coming out. But I haven’t been putting my money down on them. There’s Dark Horse and Marvel and the indie guys, right over there, and I think I’ll go be over there too.



One thing that always made me wary about this reboot was the potential to alienate people who were already DC readers. Getting new readers is all very well and good, but how long will that last if you lose the readers you already had? I had hoped, for DC’s sake, that maybe they’d be able to pull it off, but it looks like the results there are mixed at best.

And to make it worse, this reboot seems to have run off some of their better writers — including the writer of Batwoman: Elegy who has now started back up writing for Marvel.



Thanks so much for writing this! Whether or not someone plans to give DC their money, we all (especially women) have a right to be upset that a major force in our entertainment media participates so actively in perpetuating patriarchy. Furthermore, we have a right to demand that those actively hurting us *stop hurting us*. I would give anything to be a fly on the wall during the whole process of these comics being written, illustrated, reviewed, and okay’d. I want to see and hear the biases at work, to see at which point in the pipeline the process of art and storytelling breaks down and devolves into these horrors that are *somehow* rubber-stamped for publication.



[...] Sexuality’ – Oracle is Stronger than Batgirl will Ever Be – No More Mutants: 52 Problems – A Response from a Female Comic Book Fan – Dear DC [...]



I commented earlier TELL US WHAT YOU DO LIKE.

Don’t let the good books get overshadowed by sensationalist web articles and blogs. Write about how good Wonder Woman is, or any other of the MANY female starring characters who aren’t Catwoman or Starfire.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and right now Catwoman and Kori are getting greased.



I DID: http://mssnarky.wordpress.com/2011/09/28/looking-for-comics-for-young-girls-start-here/

I’ve also given recommendations of what I do like in numerous replies here (and seeing as I have a life off the internet, too, it’s taking me days to get through all of these comics) as well as on Twitter. I have entire blog posts dedicated to mini-reviews of comics as well as actual reviews that run on Comics Bulletin, where I’m a staff reviewer. I’m not really a big Wonder Woman fan in general (just because it’s a book I never got into, more than anything else), but there’s a ton of other books with female characters I do like, and I’ve stated over and over again what they are and why I like them.

Trust me, I talk enough about comics I do like. Way, way more than I ever talk about what I don’t.



Trevor says:

When I first posted yesterday I was grumpy. I usually don’t post things on message boards or anything Internet related because it often seems pointless or likely to get derailed by a troll. Because of this I likely lacked proper grammar and rambled, and I know I used wrong words like ‘stair’ instead of stare (I did better in science/history classes than English) I guess I let my anger get the best of me. So angry I forgot to point out some positive points in comics and not come off as a negative Nancy.

Here are two comics that seem to want to avoid the debasement of women:

Generation Hope- I’ve been reading about Hope since she was an infant. She can be tough as nails, sometimes a little crazy, and occasionally bossy. Yet each of these descriptions only describe about 10% of her personality. The other 70% is a character that seems very compassionate, not a one flavor emotionless void. I love Hope because she’s assertive, not aggressive, or passive-aggressive, or passive. She basically insulted Magneto AND Xavier at the same time by saying she thinks they’re pretty much the same (Magneto laughed). She says it’s OK to cry, but only after the mission is over (paraphrasing). She likes green hoodies as much as I do. She manages to respect Wolverine when he says he might kill her one day, even encouraging him to make sure she’s dead if he tries. She misses her dad, but doesn’t let his death stop her or jade her.

Atomic Robo- Brian Clevinger has a fairly strict “no cheesecake” policy for this book. I don’t mind it here and there in comics but it’s nice to know a book can have more than 4 volumes and stick to that. Plus, robots are cool! Brian is witty, the art is fun, the colors are vivid. The square cube law is broken and debated. Dinosaurs can possibly travel through time and learn enough mammal-speak to insult robots. While this book doesn’t have a lot of major female characters, it at least avoids treating the women in it poorly. The little nerd-girl grows up to work for Tesladyne.

So there, I said something positive. I feel better.



I think you still managed a good and coherent post despite being grumpy. :)

I haven’t read Atomic Robo (though I’ve heard good things), but I love Generation Hope. It’s one of the ones I’ve been recommending if people ask what are some good comics I can talk about. And Hope is exactly the kind of hero I would’ve loved as a kid.

I usually try to be pretty positive myself. I read comics because I love them, which is why I’ve made a point to emphasize the comics that I enjoy in the wake of all of this.



Kari says:

Just to add another point, a common reaction I’ve run into a lot lately is being told, “you don’t even read comics anyway, you just watch the cartoons/movies.”

Not only is this obviously not true in many cases, it isn’t particularly important even if it IS true. It doesn’t matter if I only know the Batman characters through the Christopher Nolan films, I started reading the comics because of them, or if I’ve been reading them for years. What matters is that I’m identifying with the characters and the fandom and that I have feelings, thoughts, and opinions about the way a character is being presented, which deserve the same respect as those of any other fan.



I agree. It’s that proprietary attitude of some comics fans that it’s just “their thing” and no one else’s that’s going to kill the industry. Personally, I want the cartoons and movies to bring in more comics readers so people will keep making more comics.



Ritchard says:

It’s sort of off-subject, but you brought up in one of your comments that your LCS owner told you that DC had advised the retailers to promote the “New 52″ to families, and they turned out to be, by and large, inappropriate for younger readers. (I have no idea where the comment is, as I read it in my e-mail inbox, and there are an awful lot on here.)

I just wanted to point out how misguided they are by going so heavily for the 18-35 age group (and, apparently, only the sexually frustrated guys at that). After picking up my daughter (who I mentioned is a HUGE Batman fan) today at school, I took her to a birthday party for one of her classmates. Of the ten kids there, one boy came straight from school with his Batman backpack, and two others were wearing Batman t-shirts. In other words, four of ten of the kids were obvious potential Batman comic readers; that’s 40%, simple math. And, yet, the only Batman comic that’s even close to appropriate to a small kid, or a kid at all, is the Brave & The Bold spinoff–a good book, to be sure, but one I doubt will survive much longer, given the imminent cancellation of the TV series.

How can DC (and let’s face it, Marvel is guilty as well on this count) see this as a viable long-term strategy, trying insanely hard to keep adult fanboys around at the expense of the next generation of comic fans? The thing that’s disgusted me with most superhero comics in the past 10-15 years is the lack of layered storytelling (and I must echo whoever it was who recommended Atomic Robo, though it’s not technically “superhero,” since this thought reminded me of that book). It’s possible to tell an adult story that’s still suitable for any kid who knows how to read it. Writers did it for over fifty years. (I like to point to the J. M. DeMatteis Spider-Man story “The Child Within” whenever this comes up in conversation. It’s a really dark story about the long-term effects of child abuse, including what’s heavily hinted at as sexual abuse in Vermin’s case, IIRC, and, yet, there’s nothing so overt that I would have a problem letting a 10-year-old read it.) Sure, Watchmen wouldn’t be Watchmen without the profanity, nudity, and violence… but not every title has to be Watchmen. And Julie Newmar or Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman are a lot sexier than the one-dimensional star of the current book without ever doing anything that would make any non-Amish parent raise an eyebrow.

Eh, good thing I’ve got several longboxes full of stories with strong male and female (and robot) characters for my daughter when she can read them a bit better than she’s able to now.



I agree. I have a younger sister who was a big fan of Teen Titans, as were most of her friends. When I was the age she was when she watched Teen Titans, I was a fan of X-Men and Batman. I could go and buy comics with characters I recognized from those shows, and through that, I became a lifelong comics fan. It my sister or one of her friends were to go looking for comics based on their favorite Teen Titan — Starfire — they wouldn’t find something that would get them to start reading comics. If anything, they’d find the opposite.

And Marvel is just as guilty as DC when it comes to not having enough for younger readers. I’m still not happy that they cancelled their best all-ages title, Thor the Mighty Avenger — a comic that was good for both children and adults. I recently tried to make a list of recent Marvel titles that were good for younger readers, and only two of the ones I could list were all-ages comics.

I’m really not sure where either of the Big Two is going to get their next generation of readers and honestly, I’m not sure they know either.



Orville says:

I have read this and I agree wholeheartedly. I may be single, living with parents, and not having any requited romance in my life…but this is not for me. I am a DC fan and have been for years. I do enjoy reading Starfire…but I would not want to read this. It ruins the whole concept of the character. I only hope the heroine I love most isn’t ruined by this- especially since her series got axed to shunt her into a team book. (Zatanna.)
If it is, then bye bye DC.



I’ve heard a lot of fans complaining about the loss of the Zatanna book. I hope they don’t give her the same treatment they gave Starfire, too.



dallas daniel hessler junior says:

save starfire



Jason Barnett says:

One of your key points about Starfire being a character and not a real sexually liberated woman is correct, but using that to judge things seems like a really bad idea to me. You’ll always find people who will be offended by something. Get pissed off because someone chose to portray a character a certain way it opens the foor to people complaining about that character being portrayed the opposite way.



If people want to complain that characters aren‘t being objectified, then they’ll do it no matter what I say, and there’s not much I can do to prevent that. Everyone has the right to voice their opinions, just as much as I have the right to voice mine.

It’s not a “bad idea” to complain about something that’s offensive. It’s a “bad idea” to silently let things like this slip by and act like it’s okay to portray women as nothing but sex objects. It’s not okay. Objectification of women is problematic, and if I, as a comic book reader, want to say that I’d like to stop having something I enjoy be filled with something that portrays women as less than human, well, then I can say that.

And what exactly would be the “opposite way” for Starfire? A character with a personality? A character that is control of her own sexuality instead of serving as a one-dimensional sex doll? A character who’s not horribly written and bland? Me saying hey, I’d rather writers stop from being sloppy and pandering to the lowest common denominator means that other people suddenly have the right to ask for badly written characters?

Your argument makes very little sense, but it seems to be implying that I should shut up and accept things like this because otherwise, men might insist that female characters in comic books only be sex objects. If that’s the case, I think you really need to rethink the actual implications of that stance.



Jason Barnett says:

people do still complain about pre-marital sex and non-monagamous relationships



So? That doesn’t really have anything to do with my argument. I wasn’t talking about actual sex — I was talking about objectification of women. Me discussing the objectification of women does not somehow open the door for people to talk about pre-marital sex. That’s ridiculous. People who have a problem with pre-marital sex and non-monogamous relationships are going to complain about it whether I have a problem with women being objectified or not. The two are not somehow connected.

By your logic, if a person of color was portrayed offensively in a comic, I couldn’t talk about it being problematic because then people might complain about interracial marriage. That’s a completely inane argument and has actual bearing on the issue.

And honestly? If the worst thing I have to face by speaking out against female objectification is some people who don’t like pre-marital sex, then I’m doing pretty good.



As a dude, you know the best / best-portrayed female character I’ve ever seen? Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell, specifically as portrayed over the course of the “Stand Alone Complex” series.

She’s the leader of a tactical police unit, who changes cybernetic bodies on a regular basis. She’s hot, she knows it, she enjoys it, she dresses scantily most of the time, it’s implied she’s bisexual, and it’s implied she has a lot of casual sex . . . but that’s just it. IT’S JUST IMPLIED. We are told and shown exactly as much about that aspect of her character as is necessary to inform our understanding of her character IN RELATION TO WHAT IS ACTUALLY THE FOCUS OF THE STORY: being robot fights, virtual-reality internet hacking escapades, existential riddles, etc. We only find out she has lesbian booty-calls on standby when a manhunt drives her to seek a safehouse: and that at something like 20 episodes into a 24-episode series!

With the exception of the occasional ass or boob shot (which, yeah, Japanese artists, what are you gonna do) the character, and her sexuality, are handled in a stunningly mature fashion that I’ve really not seen equaled anywhere else. Every time someone laments the lack of good female characters portrayed well, or some dick in a forum doesn’t get what’s so wrong or how it could conceivably be done better, I point them toward Ghost in the Shell.



I haven’t seen Ghost in the Shell, but it sounds like what you’re describing is basically a well-written, multi-faceted character. I agree that sex can definitely be part of a character without being all the character has to offer. Otherwise, the character just gets pretty boring.



At the risk of making this seem like shameless advertising, I’ve assembled a blog post dissecting and debunking this new interpretation of Starfire.

http://theragingfanboy.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/deconstructing-red-hood-and-the-outlaws-part-2-starfire/

If there’s anything you’d like to add, feel free. I don’t mind expanding my rant. :D



NeX says:

I understand what you are saying and you have my sympathy as a male comic book reader. you are part of a minority and as always things are tough for the minorities, doesn’t matter if its a guy who wants to buy Barbie dolls or a woman who wants to buy comics, they will face issues.

but I think you need to understand why comics are made. first of all they are writers living out their fantasies, so if some guy dreams about a sexy woman who wants to have sex with him then he will write about it. its almost a defense mechanism, real life is tough so its easier to live it in a comic where you can be the hero etc.

this is why most comic writers are male, and why most readers are male, there is a lot of pressure on men to be more than just a person, but to be a hero and get the girl, and for most men that will never happen, or at least not in the dramatic way that it does in comics.

also comics cost money and have to make money, and unfortunately in this situation sex sells, comic creators have to look at who buys their comics, mainly young guys, and so they have to make something they will buy. I know this doesn’t help you, because this is not what you want, but that is business, it sucks and we all have to suffer it in some way, over priced fuel, car insurance, poor cinema plots, etc business is never what we want its just what sells, and it works, for example i have an iPod i never use, i just bought it because at the time it seemed like i really needed it in my life.

Have you thought about writing comics? maybe starting a comic company aimed more at women or at least, non gender specific? it might be really popular, it just need someone to give it a try?

i do sympathize, but you have to live with it, i know thats the answer you don’t want to hear but its the same for all of us, if you hate tax levels, for example the only real thing you can do is run the country, if you want to change comics you have to make your own. its something we all have to put up with, and there is loads of things i am unhappy with, but don’t have the power to change without dedicating my life to it.



First, women also have fantasies very similar to these “male” fantasies you’ve just described. Your argument that because men have these fantasies about being heroic that women can’t be a part of that world is both insulting and uninformed.

And yes, comics do have to make money, and yes, sex sells. But you can make comics sexy without making them also objectify women. A woman can be sexy without being nothing but a sex object, without any real personality of her own. If the goal is to make money, why alienate over half the population of the planet? From a business standpoint, that makes no sense. Either comics are trying to market themselves or they’re only catering to the niche market of men who can’t get the girl. Which is it?

Sure, I’ll just take all this venture capital I have built up and start my own comic book company right now. Why didn’t I think of that?! If women can’t be treated with respect in mainstream comics, then we can just have our own separate but equal company. That way all the other companies can just keep right on producing badly written comics that rely on nothing but sex to sell because hey, it’s a fantasy, can’t complain!

Yes, the world is hard. Yes, things aren’t fair. But if you simply sit there and ignore it and act like that’s just how life is, then it’s always going to be that way. Progress starts when people start speaking out.



NeX says:

i didn’t mean that women don’t have hero fantasies, i just meant that the idea of being the guy with all the muscles that gets the girl at the end, is the male one which is depicted in comics. do you have fantasies about being a muscley guy who gets to have sex with a hot girl?

i am sure that the comic industry has a team of marketing people who look at their demographic and find them to be adolescent males and targets their comics at that area, i know that by doing that they miss half the worlds population, but i think they must have a reason for it, they probably found that comics more aimed at being non gender specific or female orientated didn’t sell as well. i know it sucks but all businesses have to put money first ahead of everything else. obviously this could be a catch 22 situation where the reason comics aimed at girls don’t sell as well is because generally women don’t feel welcome buying comics, and if they did they would buy more of them and then the comics would sell more, but i don’t know, what i do know is the company will pour a lot of money into researching their audience, and have found this to be the answer, even if it seems totally stupid.

you are coming off as a little hostile here, i don’t appreciate that, i know that tone of voice and body language get lost in online comments, but i really am on your side here, and i agree, i am just giving another point to think about.

acting like being able to start a company for you is impossible, is the same as me saying there is nothing you can do about this. “progress starts with speaking out” yes it does, but actions too, if you really wanted you could change this, with a rival company. but i feel that if you make a non gender comic company and make that your key point over making money, you might find that it simply wont compete with the other companies. Also these companies can actually do what ever they want, as long as its not against the law, and if it still sells then why would they change? if these companies made badly written comics and everyone stopped buying them they would have to change, but the point is they are selling.

this is what i said before, they are there to make money, and companies will do anything to make money, if it means degrading women in comic books then thats what they will (and are) doing, to change this you have to stop buying comics, that what would really make a difference, and this is why a say that things are this way and you just have to accept them. you have a choice, keep buying comics and fund an industry that you don’t believe in, or stop buying them so they are forced to change. i know that you don’t want to stop buying comics, you would rather they just changed, but they wont as long as it brings in the cash, which at the moment it does, and that is why it has to be accepted unless you want to do something about it.



I’m a little hostile because you’re lecturing me, and that’s insulting. Don’t tell me you’re “on my side” and then tell me I have to live with objectification. That’s demeaning and degrading, and shows very little respect for me or women in general, no matter what you might think.

Comic books are not only about guys with muscles having sex with hot girls. The last time I checked, that was not the plot of every single comic book. These comic books are about superheroes, and yes, girls fantasize about being those, too. Comics aren’t all about sex. Porn is. Comics are not always porn.

And if comics have what sells so figured out, then why do their numbers keep dropping and why are they scrambling to get new readers with desperate bids for ratings like reboots?

Lots of comics don’t have objectification of women. I’ve also discussed those on my blog. They have actually strong, actually sexy female characters, and they still sell. Those are the comics I support, and I will keep buying those and not comics like this. This sort of thing is not necessary, nor does it have any place in mainstream comics — especially ones rated for teens.



Dog says:

Thank you for putting so much more skillfully and eloquently the thoughts on my mind, not just from the recent DC events, but many other things in my life too.



Thanks! I’m glad you could relate to my post.



Chris says:

Loved your take on the new DCU Catwoman and Starfire.

I really do think that the blatant over-sexing of the recent DC books is in an attempt to bring in new, probably male, readers. The problem with Catwoman and Red Hood and the Outlaws is that it seemed like cheap fan fiction. The characters in both books have been modified/changed/rebooted just to fit in with the writer’s view of how this part of the DC Universe should look. If this is truly what DC believes the fans want to see I think they are sorely mistaken.

I understand its DC’s sandbox and they can play with their toys however they choose but to make such changes that fly in the face of what their established fans expect is ridiculous. Comics are supposed to be about escapism, escaping from the real world to a fantasy world where anything can happen. These 2 books from DC look to be someones fantasy world that is very different that what I envision for comics.

To be fair I was not a fan of the line wide reboot DC has done. But, I will admit that there have been some surprisingly good books. But there have been a fair share of stinkers and that includes Catwoman and Red Hood and the Outlaws. Making radical changes to characters and how they act might buy a temporary increase in readers but the longtime readers that have carried DC for years will begin to lose interest if the haven’t already.



I agree, and that’s a lot of what the root of my problem was with this reboot, even beyond the blatant sexism in books like these. They traded established readers for a quick fix of drawing in new ones, and it seems like it was more disorganized than anything else. Some of it was handled well, but there’s not a lot of consistency in which characters would be complete reboots, which ones would be partial reboots, and what bits of history they would or wouldn’t keep.

It’s putting a band-aid over the problem of flagging sales, not getting to the root of the issue. And I think trying to pass of bad writing as “sexy” writing is one of the big problems they’ve glossed over.



Chris says:

One of my conspiracy theories is that DC hadn’t originally planned this reboot and that Flashpoint was a convenient place to tack it on. To me Flashpoint seemed as though the joining of the timelines at the end was a bit forced.

To me, DC’s reboot seemed to breakdown in that everything in Batman and Green Lantern remains the same because its selling so well, but we’ll reboot everything else. There are still tons of timeline issues to figure out such as how can Damien Wayne be Batman’s son when Bruce wasn’t even Batman when Damien was conceived? (Though in the effort of of full disclosure I was hoping the reboot would do away with Damien). Also, how is Barbara Gordon unparalyzed. I’m hoping that reading a few of the books will fill in the gaps.and questions I have. So well done DC, you got me to buy a few books until I can figure out whats happening. Whether I stick with any of these new books on my pull list is to be determined.

Though to be fair the DC reboot/retcon is still better than how Marvel handled the retcon of Peter’s identity of Spider-Man being public knowledge and the dissolving of the Spider-Marriage.



That whole Spider-Man mess is a big reason why I don’t read Spider-Man comics, despite reading most of Marvel’s other major titles.

Honestly, as someone with only a passing knowledge of a lot of DC’s continuity, I’ve been more confused by it since the reboot than less. I’m pretty sure that wasn’t supposed to be what they were going for, since the reboot was meant to give new readers a jumping on point.



Chris says:

I’m a big Spider-Man fan, in fact he’s my favorite Marvel character, but I’ve stopped reading him finally. My hope was that it had to get better and that things would turn around. Perhaps I had some comic-based form of Stockholm Syndrome because Spidey just kept becoming some unrecognizable new character to me. Maybe if they do actually bring Ben Reilly back I’ll come back to the Spidey books.

As for DC, I agree 100%. I read Batgirl and Red Robin on a regular basis before the reboot. I’m still picking up Batgirl but needless to say I’m confused. As for the history of the new DCU I can’t follow that and I don’t think the writers can either. Dan DiDio announced over the weekend that none of the Crisises have occurred in the new DCU. Not sure how Bruce Wayne could ‘die’ allowing Dick Grayson to become Batman if Final Crisis never occurred. Just further proof in my mind the reboot was a last minute idea with little thought put into it.



A lot of the statements I’ve heard out of DiDio seem to be a bit conflicting. You’d think that if they were going to do something this massive, they would’ve taken the time to establish exactly what the new continuity was for everyone to write within. It doesn’t seem like they actually did that, at least not as carefully as they should have.

“Comic-based for of Stockholm Syndrome” sounds like a good way to describe why I kept reading X-Men comics for years, despite them drifting steadily more away from what they had been when I first started reading them.



“Honestly, as someone with only a passing knowledge of a lot of DC’s continuity, I’ve been more confused by it since the reboot than less. I’m pretty sure that wasn’t supposed to be what they were going for, since the reboot was meant to give new readers a jumping on point.”

This may be an exercise in futility since you’ve jumped off the DC Bandwagon by your own admission, but could you give me a couple of examples? Maybe I can try and clear things up. :)



NeX says:

ok, i am sorry for any offence i may have caused, i genuinely didn’t mean it, but like i said these things sometimes get lost in comments.

the thing is that we do have to live with some of these things. for example how would you stop people from making comics that are degrading, other than make a law about it? there is a lot of stuff that goes on that i find unacceptable, like war for example, but there is nothing i can do about it i just have to accept it. but you seem to be acting as if I am the one degrading you, i am not, or at least not intentionally, nothing i have said is ment to degrade you or women in anyway and i am sorry if it came out that way, i just think that if people want to make degrading comics then you just have to accept that, its the same that some parents raise their kids to be nazis, its wrong, but you cant stop them from doing it, you cant make the world be exactly what you want it to be without being some kind of dictator.

sorry but i am going to have to stop, i really would love to continue this discussion, and if you want to talk on skype or something then you are more than welcome, but i think there are too many misunderstandings here, i genuinely see and understand your point, i don’t think that DC has done is acceptable, and they should go under for that, but that is not for me to decide.



We do NOT have to “live with” the objectification of women in comics. Ans seeing as this is the 21st century, we can do something about it, whether it’s voting with our wallets or raising the topic on blogs, Twittern, and forums. We can demand better — and we should. Otherwise, qui tacet consentire videtur. Thus, silence gives consent.

Oh, and thanks for breaking Godwin’s Law.



Matthew says:

Ms. Snarky,

I agree with your complaint about DC’s continuity becoming more confusing. Back in 85/86 when Crisis rebooted everything (except Batman, Green Lantern and the Titans) the new continuity was handled as a jumping on point and was well defined for new and old readers alike to understand. A little less than a decade later when Zero Hour was designed as a mini reboot to streamline continuity and provide a jumping on point, everything was left a little muddy and difficult to follow, we were told the new 52 was going to be like the post crisis reboot. That is not what we received. Superman’s continuity is now kind of questionable, and if any character needs to be nailed down specifically so as not to cause fan confusion it is the Man of Steel.



[...] like Comics Alliance (though you need to read that) or Andrew Wheeler (also an excellent read) or Ms. Snarky (you may want to take notes on that [...]



JV says:

“It’s about using sex to sell a comic because hey, why would the men who buy comics (because, after all, comics are for men) want to buy a title with a female lead if she isn’t ‘sexy.’” – it’s a very good point. Not their point, I mean, yours.
One of the many reasons I stopped reading comic series (along with Aunt May ressurrecting pointlessly for the n-th time, and the X-Men going to hell) was after I found out Alias had been canceled. It had been refreshing to see a female character that felt real (maybe it didn’t to you, but it did to me) enough to care as a protagonist, not just as material for softcore porn daydreaming, or whatevs. It was awkward, to say the least, to go ‘back’ to what is, unfortunately, ‘regular’ comics, where women’s bodies are always arched, etc. Plainly, it felt like “you know what? I’m not a hormone-driven teenage boy, this is pointless.”



I liked Alias, too. It dealt with sex, but not in a “ooo…here’s some sex! isn’t that sexy and making you want to buy this way!” but more in a “these are adults making choices about their own adult lives” way. It also wasn’t give a rating that suggested it was geared towards teens. There’s several other books out there with strong female characters, but there’s a sad lack in the number with strong female leads.



The only strong female lead in a DC comic book right now (other than the obvious ones like Supergirl, Wonder Woman, etc.) would have to Amanda Waller of “Suicide Squad”. Unfortunately, not only does the book suck, she’s also been turned from a large imposing black woman into a skinny supermodel.



McFly says:

PREACH!
First off, whilst I was an INSANE fan of the original Batman cartoon (I can still vividly remember an episode – maybe movie? – where this old man goes off the rails and tries to zap his daughter, believing he is in fact Zeus) and even at a young age was drawn to how comparatively darker it was; I also loved both the 80s and 90s X-men cartoons.

That said, I very quickly shifted toward quality webcomics and joushi/seinen manga (Monster, for instance, which I totally recommend) precisely because, although I could not articulate it at the time, something about superhero comics made me feel uneasy. Looking back, it was the gender politics. Having never really looked back, I have a far lower tolerance for bullshit in this arena. Whilst I might not know timelines or characters, the arguments in theory still stand.

If DC ever wants to convince me out of my money, there would have to be a drastic decrease in the ridiculous ass and titties parade. Or, give us some random crotch/bent-over zooms of Superman. Like, a panel devoted to a dude’s crotch for no reason. Level the playing field.

Perhaps, after T&A, or moreso, I want PLURAILTY. Different kinds of female characters and different kinds of goddamn sexy! Seriously. The only sexy save for 52!Supergirl’s wierdo crotch panel and thights, is big boobs + tiny waist + ass. That is IT. Maybe, plus long legs. Whilst some versions of Wonder Woman seem to deviate from this, she seems to more and more be part of this singular depiction of sexy that has made DC ladies almost like Nicki Minaj barbies with alternate heads. Now, I say this as a woman with -actually- naturally large breasts and a thin waist blah blah blah. From a young age (12/13), men on the street would make sexual comments, throw their keys at me and ‘invite me home’ – be all kinds of insufferably arrogant perverts. So, unlike these comic book writers, I have a LIVED experience of having big breasts (ps – boobs + gravity + running around apparently bra-less? = Only so much suspension of disbelief, writers). And it annoys me to see a body type similar to my own constantly shoved down everybody’s throats as the One and Only Ideal. And that, you can treat women who look that way, the way they do in Starfire, or assume that she is automatically a “slut” and therefore unworthy of decent human RESPECT.
So, you know what? I DO want smaller breasts in comics, too! To me, the classical pear-shape a la Pre-Raphilites is perhaps one of the most attractive female body shapes. I also really love tall, broad shouldered women. And I am sure that men are not some monolith, all attracted to -exactly- the same shape, or solely to the one DC wants to draw.

I applaud you for saying what needs to be said, and kicking the asses of numerous trolls with such flair and precision (dear god, some of them are too ridiculously hilarious for me to…I can’t even).

PS- Loving the “say something positive!”, “but there are good ones for you to buy!!” arguments. As if everything must be perfectly balanced and favourable (unlike,y’know, the comics themselves), or as if you automatically -owe- it to a company that promotes misogyny, rather than it being THEIR responsibility not to piss off a large portion of their audience. Obvs, as laydeez, we must avoid being too negative, lest we be perceived as evul harpies.

PSPS- Whilst the expectation to not be an asshole is a low one, and an indication of the times we live in, the guys who actually GET IT here have warmed my little stone-cold heart.



When it comes to guys, please don’t assume the lowest common denominator is representative of the majority. While all of us can have the occasional lapses, we’re usually not like that.

To be honest, comics would probably benefit from borrowing ideas from manga when it comes to a diversification of themes. Instead of concentrating on horror, sci-fi, war, western, and superhero comics – which’ve been done to death already – they should’ve either tried something new or put a new spin on an old idea. Perhaps a slice-of-life series about the side of superheroics that’ve remained completely unexplored, like “Harleen Quinzel: Supervillain Psychologist” or a romantic comedy about a supervillain/superhero couple. Someone I know jokingly suggested “Doctor Thirteen’s Weird Romance” as a candidate. :D

As someone who’s been to Japan and spent a few months there, I can honestly say that you have no idea how refreshing it is to see people of all ages reading manga everywhere you go in a place that’s remained untouched by the usual social stigmas associated with comic books and the creativity-stifling ghost of Fredric Wertham.



[...] Ms. Snarky’s Awesometastic Comics Blog, “A Response from a Female Comic Book Fan”, 924/11, by Ms. [...]



John V says:

I had this really well written, well thought out, sensitive and insightful response to this article but instead I’m just going go with…You are a dumb fucking moronic cunt who will never effect any change in this hobby that doesn’t give two shits about you. Yup…the classics. Always the best choice.



Aww…did that make your widdle penis feel all big?



I doubt he has either that well thought out response or a penis…



Peter says:

I thought they didn’t show Catwoman’s face at for the same reason they didn’t show several other character’s faces (Superboy is floating in his boxer shorts in profile for example).

To make it a big reveal when it is shown.



Nice job completely missing the point of everything I said. Gold star!



ChangingLeads says:

I hope somebody from DC reads this, because this is a brilliantly thought out argument with incredibly valid points.



Thanks. I wish DC would read a lot of what’s being said on this, but it seems like they’ve decided to completely miss the point of the argument instead.



dedicatedfollower467 says:

I have to admit, I have not been reading comics as long as you have, but as another reader with two X chromosomes, I feel the same way. I haven’t read Catwoman, but Starfire really REALLY bothered me. And the worst part about it is that I desperately connect to Jason. I want to see what they’ve done with him and I want to see as he grows and develops in this new continuity. But if I want to follow Red Hood, I also have to get Starfire’s boobs shoved in my face. I’m sorry, I really DON’T want to read that.

I agree with what you’ve said. I don’t know how to show DC that I’m offended by Starfire’s portrayal though – short of boycotting the book. But I care more about finding out what Jason is doing than showing DC that women are being portrayed offensively. Any suggestions?



You could try reading up on his past exploits to see where he’s been or where he’s coming from. Perhaps the series will eventually improve and you’ll feel like giving it another chance, but I’m not holding my breath.



dedicatedfollower467 says:

I’ve decided If things don’t improve in issue two, I’m dropping it.



You’re a braver person than I am. I’m not touching the second issue. :P

It’s a shame, really. I’ve been thinking about the book a lot recently and just wondered how much fun I could have writing it. :)



dedicatedfollower467 says:

I know! These characters are far too exciting and interesting for them to be disrespected this way! Part of me wants to write a fanfic that goes is basically “What Red Hood and the Outlaws SHOULD have been!”



I actually got so phenomenally bored yesterday that I managed to borrow some ideas from Devin Grayson’s old “Arsenal” miniseries and hammer out the basic plot for some kind of dysfunctional family road trip story arc with Roy, Cheshire, Lian Harper, Red Hood, and Starfire on the run from Vandal Savage and his cronies.

You should e-mail me. Maybe WE can team up and write this book instead. *laughs* :D



You are AWESOME for writing this, and I applaud you. I loved He-Man when I was a kid, too (I totally wanted to be the Sorceress of Grayskull),

But you make a great point about the comic book industry–they should be drawing readers IN, not shutting them out. Which is exactly what they’re doing, unfortunately. It makes no sense, because if their comics have a wider appeal, they get a wider audience, and thus….MORE MONEY! How’s that for a slice of fried gold? =D

And this is just a side note, but can I just say how much I *hate* it when people dis ‘girly manga’? (I’m looking at YOU, Snide Comic Shop Guy!) First of all, there is NOTHING wrong with being ‘girly’ or being a girl. Saying so implies that you believe women are less than, and all THAT does is show you for the sexist toad that you are.

Secondly, I’m a proud fan of both manga AND comics. Manga has its share of truly fantastic artists and storytellers (Rumiko Takahashi and Nobuhiro Watsuki are just two of that number), and I’m sick to death of hearing manga get slammed because many women happen to enjoy it.

You know WHY? Manga has VARIETY. There is something for everyone. If I hate one manga, guess what? There’s probably at least three more that I am likely to enjoy and/or not be completely alienated by. I don’t get that in American comics, not by a long shot! (Note: this is not to say that all manga is awesome–as with any art form, there’s good and bad within, as well as objectification, etc.–my POINT is that I can easily find something else. This luxury, such as it is, should exist in American comics, and it’s absolutely shameful that it doesn’t.)

American comic creators, companies, and less evolved fans tend to tell women readers, essentially, that they do not matter. And then (here’s the kicker) we’re NOT supposed to be offended by that?!!!!! REALLY??!!! Really?! You know why I’m offended? BECAUSE WHAT YOU SAID WAS COMPLETELY FUCKING OFFENSIVE. Telling someone else they don’t matter is essentially placing them on the same level as, oh I don’t know, the dirt beneath your feet. It is one of the worst things that you can say or imply to another human being. I really don’t understand WHY I still must explain this to people. It really isn’t that difficult to grasp.



[...] Another blog post about the new Catwoman (linked from that above) I think really hit the nail on the head. In a section down the bottom of her post, the author addresses some of the more popular comments she has received about her post, and a couple resonated with me. [...]



Fanlady says:

Just zipping by and read your blog. I am a 47 year old woman that has been encountering scores of judgmental non-comic book fans AND comic book fans for two decades plus now… and to you I say “Excelsior!” and “Flame On!” and whatever else the heroes are saying now-a-days. Great blog and thank you for voicing the thoughts of this “old timer”.



[...] Of ‘tsja, weet je, zo is het altijd al geweest, dus waar maak je je druk om’. Ms Snarkyfileert dat soort logisch klinkende, maar in wezen seksistische redenaties. Het komt allemaal neer op hou toch gewoon je kop, en dat gaat anno 2011 niet meer lukken, schrijft [...]



Armacal says:

Just a side-note. I worked at McDonalds in 1993. There was a Happy Meal promotion that had Hot Wheels cars and Barbies. At my store, we had to ask if they wanted the Hot Wheels or the Barbie -we could not assume based on gender. Some mothers hated that – “What do you think? She’s a girl.” Also, one of the four Barbies was black. Guess which one was always returned?

I don’t know – I like to assume the best of people. Perhaps McDonalds isn’t the best place to judge us culturally. Perhaps parents shelling out five bucks for sub-par food and a chunk of plastic can be forgiven if they laps in the strive towards higher ideals.

Sorry for going off-topic. I guess my point was “in 1993, at my store, we had to ask”.



I was already a teenager by the 90′s. This was the 80′s.

I never said I thought the people who worked at McDonald’s were bad people or trying to oppress me. I was talking about how it made me feel as a little girl to be told what I like wasn’t what girls were supposed to like. It was one thing that symbolized an overall cultural issue. I think focusing on this is missing the point of the post.



Armacal says:

Sorry – I wasn’t trying to disagree with you, and it is admittedly off-point. This was only meant as an aside to your McDonalds anecdote. I just thought you might like to hear that by the 90s people were at least starting to think about gender roles with regard to happy meal toys.



Will says:

You, and Michelle Lee, are both awesome for the way have addressed DC’s enormous misstep! And I agree with you 100%. Though I can’t really relate to what it feels like to be objectified myself, I do know brazen objectification when I see it. The portrayal of sex in these stories is nothing ground breaking or empowering, it just reads like adolescent fan-fic. Starfire is great because of her quirky character, charm, and honesty. But the reboot erased everything, including her mind and personality, for pure I candy. For voyeurism. Nothing else. Period.

As you have already stated, the counter arguments are “sex sells”, “dudes like boobs” shallow shallow blah blah etc. Well, I’m a dude, I’m straight, and I can’t help but to like boobs. But I too find these works offensive. Because what DC has done with Starfire and Catwoman is:

DC HAS TAKEN THE HERO OUT OF SUPERHERO COMICS!

(At least for Starfire and Catwoman). There is nothing heroic about a blank slate awkwardly posing, not even for the object of her “affection,” but for the reader. In fact, it’s insulting, yes even for dudes, because it tells us (as readers) that not only is it ok to take turns on an unwitting sexual partner and to high five each other about it later; it is encouraged. The reader can imply that such behavior is encouraged because the vehicle for the message is the Superheros themselves (you know the characters with whom we are supposed to identify, the characters we are supposed to admire). Following the logic, to find fault in this behavior is discouraged. As far as I’m concerned these are no longer superheros. These “characters” have become complicit in the propagation of usury, deceit, and the worst kind objectification of women. And we as readers are told that not only is this behavior ok, but that it is to be encouraged, and ultimately expected.

I followed and LOVED the Teen Titans cartoon and some of the comics, because even as a guy, I could admire Starfire’s personality. Her honesty and openness were things are are UNIVERSALLY inspiring. I don’t see anything inspiring about this new Starfire [And since when did a TEEN Titan get ridiculous implants? And why on earth would the established Starfire character value them?]. The ensemble of the cast I could look up to had struggles that felt genuine, that reflected real-world issues. And the way they fought through it all could show the reader positive attitudes and solutions to potential real-world troubles. The only thing this cast is struggling with is how to get off with as little consequence as possible. :( Snooooooore!

I’m saddened to see that there is no soul behind an awkward, oversexualised representation of a woman that I used to find so awesome.

I’m offended by the message, that intentional usury is rewarded, by characters I used to admire.

And finally, I’m just as wary of the message this story conveys to a young impressionable boy, as I would be with respect to a young impressionable girl.



Mako Crab says:

Excellent read, Ms. Snarky. I agree with you completely.



Julie says:

Great article!! I completely agree. I personally believe that Xena: The Warrior Princess was the perfect example of showing sexiness/sensuality without objectifying the characters in the show. Comics should follow Xena’s example.

DC Comics kind of suck. Although, there are some titles of the reboot I like (Batwoman, Batgirl and Wonder Woman), they just are not good at telling good stores with great thematic material; they rely too much on the nostalgia of the well known heroes to get readership and also T&A.

Tell good stores, DC! Seriously, if the stories are compelling than people will read. I hate Dan Didio. He’s a jerk. You have to have soul to be an artist. He’s got no soul.



No soul except for the ones he feeds upon to stay alive, anyway… :P



Katrinka says:

I am a real late-comer to this discussion. However, having been an avid cartoon/superhero/comic book fan, I can tell you that I often experienced the angst of objectification just before I left comics forever. In the early 90s, I worked at the local comic book store and eventually became a manager of said store. I was full blown geek. I didn’t just read comics, I played RPGs, collectible card games — the whole banana. Although I never heard any such things as I didn’t belong in the scene or that comics were only for guys, I was often met with surprise when I greeted people coming into the shop. As I read more and more, I gravitated more to the independent publishers and eschewed Marvel and DC. As the 90s dragged on, I became disenchanted with a lot of the stuff that I was reading (and seeing). Many female characters were becoming vacant and two dimensional (so to speak). While their characters were diminishing, their bodies were becoming more… exaggerated, let’s say. I often found myself thinking “So, what was the story about again?”
I have three daughters that already being assaulted by body image messages, and they are 7 and (2x)4. What bothers me a little more is how it might affect my boys, if I ever let them pick up comic books. Are they going to grow up to be looking for a woman with a triple E bra size and boy hips who’ll spread ‘em simply because he might be hot…or available? If so, they are going to be waiting an awfully long time. What a high standard.
I get it, T&A sells. As a once avid comic reader who invested a lot of time and money, I willingly walked away from it all simply because that’s all it became.
Where’s Kevin Matchstick and Martha Washington when you need them?



Paul Rinder says:

I was glad to read this and fully agree with your post. I have been a comc book fan for over 30 years and I am a male. I have never been drawn to comics based on their portrayal of the females. I have read because of the artwork and mostly the story. I was looking forward to the new 52 but after reading this and other posts am hesitant as they seam to be heading in the wrong direction. I LOVE a good comic book storyline that is beautifully drawn and I wil overlook most scenes/portrayals of women for a good story. I believe and want women involved and enjoying comics as much as i do.l have 3 sons I will pass my passion on to and would also if I had a daughter. I want my sons to appreciate the medium and what it brings but not at the cost of them objectifiying women which has always annoyed me my whole life. It is not needed here. You can create a strong, beautiful, sexy character fully clothed while telling a story. I could say so much more but I will just say thank you and there is support out there



Hank Cartwright says:

First off, let me say I understand where you’re coming from when you talk about things being “For Boys” or “For Girls” As an adult male who watches My Little Pony religiously I can feel your pain. Most of what I’m going to say is just my taking the position of “Devil’s Advocate”. I have not read the two issues you pointed out, so I can not form a truely informed opinion. Based solely on what you said, I aggree that there should be better character content, however I can understand the pure erotic appeal to the scene you mentioned. What you failed to realize is that “You can’t please everyone all the time”. You are not the target audience and no amount of money you spend will change that. Loosing one, or even all, fringe customers does not matter as long as they hit the main source of revenue. That being said, if you are the true mark they should be aiming for and they miss, then they’ll go away and make room for better works.

As for the poor treatment you’ve gotten when buying comics, I’m sorry that happened to you. We all get treated poorly at times. You’re not alone, and it’s not limited to women. Just remember that for every one guy who give you a hard time about comics there are 20 guys who would love the hang out and talk comics with you. Not to mention the 100 guys standing in the corner wishing they could talk to the sexy comic reading chick.

I do have to point out the fact that you complain about Catwoman being objectified then you turn around and do it yourself. “I wanted to be pretty like Catwoman” Coming from someone who grew up trying to look like He-Man, Conan, and Rambo I’m as guilty as you are about objectifying, but the image of a man that I was told as is kid gets me treated like some beastly monster now. Count your blessings there. I’m tired of everyone expecting everything to fit their image all the time. I’m tired of women wanting me to be “Metrosexual” when we’re in the shopping mall then wanting me to be Chuck Norris if we get mugged in the parking lot. Nothing is perfectly what we want all the time. Society needs to accept the good with the bad, because your idea of bad is not everyone’s idea of bad. I respect your right to not like what you see. From your description of the Catwoman issue I doubt I would follow it either, but I don’t expect DC to change because of it. Just because we live in an age when everyone has a voice doesn’t mean everyone else has to listen. No one is entitled to anything, and life is not fair.

All this being said I appreciate your love of comic books and would love to disguss them further.



Women don’t want anything from you except to not be a douchebag. And just so you know, you’ve failed at that.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being asked to be treated with respect. I don’t care if you’re metrosexual or Chuck Norris. I would, however, like you to show me some respect, and telling me to shut up because life isn’t fair is not doing that. No, it isn’t fair. It isn’t fair that I have to listen to men who come on my blog and play “Devil’s advocate” about something they’ve never actually had to live with, since you have no way of understanding what it’s like to be objectified as a woman. It’s not about being “pretty.” It’s about being treated like a sex object. It’s degrading and insulting.

There’s not many things I can’t stand more than Devil’s advocate crap. Take a side or stay out of the conversation. There’s no room for this kind of short-sided, uninformed bullshit when it comes to sexism. And also? Half of what you said is offensive, condescending, and disgusting. You need to learn a little bit about sexism before you ever speak to a woman again.

And guess what, asshole — sexism is WRONG no matter what some people think. Grow up.



Hank Cartwright says:

Why is it different being “objectified as a woman” or as a man? Why is it that you can’t get the same respect from you that you expect from me? That’s a bit hypocritical. Don’t you think?

Yes sexism is wrong, but being a victim of it doesn’t give you the right to do it to others. I shouldn’t have to take it any more then you do.

All I wanted to point out is no one likes being told what they have to do to keep others happy. That comes across as ungrateful and disrespectful.

As for half the stuff I said being, offensive, condescending, and disgusting, I can say the exact thing about your original post. We can through talking points back and forth all day, but my original thought was not to do such. I didn’t intend to attack you personally, and I may have expressed my thoughts poorly. For that I apologies. I just believe mutual respect is key, and it angers me when people demand respect and fail to show it in return. As for my ‘playing Devil’s Advocate”, I had no choice because I never read the titles you mentioned. I couldn’t agree or disagree with your premise so I could only comment on your delivery.

As for my needing to grow up, you called me a douchebag and an asshole, and I never called you any names. Not what I’d call “Grown Up’ behavior. I expected an intelligent debate and found childish name calling. If you want better treatment then you may want to treat people the way you expect them to treat you.

I’ll await you reply.



You came on my blog and showed me no respect. So no, you don’t get my respect. Because you were rude and insulting. That’s not being a hypocrite, since I would have respected you if you hadn’t come in and been such an enormous jackass. And if you can’t figure out why I’m offended by your sexist, demeaning response to me, then you’re the one with a problem. Also, it DOES make you a douchebag and an asshole. I’m just calling them like I see them. You played “Devil’s advocate” (badly, I may add) and told me what basically amounts to shut up with your lady feelings. That isn’t commenting on my “delivery” (which, despite what you claim, you never, ever did) or the premise. You did have a choice. You could’ve not commented if you had nothing productive to say. Instead, you were an asshole. So I called you an asshole. Pro tip — if you don’t want someone calling you an asshole, don’t be one. PROBLEM SOLVED!

Look, here’s the deal. You don’t understand what it’s like to be objectified as a woman. YOU CAN’T. You’re not a woman. Sure, I don’t know what it’s like to be a brony, but I’m fairly certain people aren’t yelling at you in the streets about your ass when you’re just trying to walk to work because you’re a Friend of Pinkie Pie. You don’t even know what objectification IS, clearly, given your completely obtuse response to the issue. You never once listed any actual instances of objectification in your comment. The only thing you mentioned was watching My Little Pony and being upset women want you to be a metrosexual Chuck Norris. Here’s a tip — if you’re not informed enough to comment on the issue at hand, DON’T. Otherwise, you look like an idiot. Do I care that people don’t want to be told they need to stop being sexist to make women happy? No. Because I can guarantee you that I dislike having sexism shoved in my face a lot less than anyone has ever disliked being told to knock that shit off when it comes to sexism. Whether or not I upset sexists is not keeping me up at night. If you offended by my blog because I dared to speak out against objectification of women, you’re the one with the issue who needs to learn to change. Not me.

There’s a difference between wanting to be made happy and asking sexism stop. I’m not asking for DC to cater to me. I’m asking them to remember that women are people and not sex objects. And you DID attack me personally by telling me I need to shut up and accept sexism, which, whether you realized it or not, is what your response was. You told me women are the problem for not knowing what they want in a man. You told me I should be happy I’m objectified. That’s an asshole response, plain and simple. You tell me it angers you when people ask for respect and then aren’t respectful. It angers me when people are total sexist asshats. I wasn’t sexist towards you. I was offended by you. You, on the other hand, treated me to big heaping pile of casual sexism, which, whether the person engaging in it knows it or not, is just as offensive as the more blatant kind. (I’ll guess you don’t know what casual sexism is, but you should. Look it up when you look up objectification. Both definitions will benefit you greatly in the future.)

However, since you clearly understand NOTHING, let me try to explain it to your tiny mind and tell you everything that is wrong and offensive with your original comment. MAYBE if I point out just how sexist you are, it’ll somehow click for you. I’m not holding my breath there, but here it goes anyway:

First off, let me say I understand where you’re coming from when you talk about things being “For Boys” or “For Girls” As an adult male who watches My Little Pony religiously I can feel your pain. No, you don’t. My post was not just about liking “boys” vs. “girls” things. It was about institutionalized, systemic sexism that I’ve had to deal with every day of my life. You don’t understand that just because you’re a brony, and telling me that watching My Little Pony suddenly makes you understand what it’s like to be a woman dealing with sexism and objectification is offensive and belittling. Most of what I’m going to say is just my taking the position of “Devil’s Advocate”. I have not read the two issues you pointed out, so I can not form a truely informed opinion. So why then is commenting something you felt like you had to do exactly? As I stated above, if you don’t know anything about the issue DON’T COMMENT ON IT. No one’s holding a gun to your head and making you comment. You tell me I can’t expect comics to always please me and to stop complaining, but you have every right to tell me what I should think on my own blog? No. If you don’t have anything informed to say, keep your mouth shut. And possibly learn to take your own advice if you feel so strongly about it you have to lecture a complete stranger on her blog. Based solely on what you said, I aggree that there should be better character content, however I can understand the pure erotic appeal to the scene you mentioned. This is gross. Telling a woman something that she finds objectifying is sexy is insulting and offensive. No woman will like that. If you want to avoid this situation in the future, learn when to keep your mouth shut and don’t say it again. Telling you this is doing you a favor. What you failed to realize is that “You can’t please everyone all the time”. You are not the target audience and no amount of money you spend will change that. Wow. Okay, here’s where you move into serious asshole territory. Also, you tell the other commenter that you didn’t mean “male” here, but what else could you possibly mean? I said I felt like I was left out in the cold with these comics because I’m a woman. So, logically, what here makes me not the target demographic — being a woman. And no, I don’t realize you can’t please everyone all of the time. But honestly, is it really so much to ask that you offend people as little as possible? That you try to cut down on things like sexism, racism, and homophobia? That isn’t trying to please everyone. That’s being a decent person. Learn the difference. It’ll work wonders for you. Loosing one, or even all, fringe customers does not matter as long as they hit the main source of revenue. That being said, if you are the true mark they should be aiming for and they miss, then they’ll go away and make room for better works.False. Comics are not doing awesomely right now. They need all the sales they can get, “fringe,” or not. If they’re actively driving away any group, especially a group as broad as “women who don’t like to be treated like sex objects” then this is going to become a problem. Telling me it doesn’t matter if they have female readers — which, whether you realize it or not is exactly what you said — is problematic. And yes, super offensive and degrading. You’ve just told me my woman-money doesn’t count. Thanks a lot, asshole. I never get tired of hearing that.

As for the poor treatment you’ve gotten when buying comics, I’m sorry that happened to you. We all get treated poorly at times. You’re not alone, and it’s not limited to women. No, but I can bet you just about anything there aren’t men who walk into a comic book shop only to be told to their face they aren’t welcome to be male. There aren’t male comic book fans who, after having yet another porntastic, degrading image shoved in their face are told to just calm down, sweetheart, and realize that’s what you have to live with to be part of the “man’s world.” You don’t understand what I’m talking about because no matter how many times you watch My Little Pony, you’re not going to walk out on the street and have people treat you as lesser just because of your gender. The people singling you out as “the other” and not worthy of being part of their group because of your gender is not the majority. That’s something I have to deal with every single day, and not just in comics. Come back and talk to me when you’ve had a boss insinuate if you sleep with him, he’ll give you a raise. Or when someone thinks it’s completely okay to call you “honey” and talk to you like you’re twelve years old simply because of your gender. Or when you’re told they don’t want you in their store because it isn’t a place for your gender. Or when you say hey, this offends me, someone tells you to calm down and take your Midol. When you know what THAT’S like, we can compare notes. Just remember that for every one guy who give you a hard time about comics there are 20 guys who would love the hang out and talk comics with you. Not to mention the 100 guys standing in the corner wishing they could talk to the sexy comic reading chick.Oh. Yay. Creepy guys hiding in the corner want to talk to me. All my prayers have been answered. Here’s a little insight into the female mind. Most of us don’t have days that can be made or ruined simply based on whether or not enough guys think we’re hot. I don’t read comics so guys will think I’m sexy, and implying I should shows just how much you missed the entire point of my post. And since you clearly didn’t understand it, then why are you commenting on it again? Is your compulsive need to play “Devil’s advocate” honestly that strong?

I do have to point out the fact that you complain about Catwoman being objectified then you turn around and do it yourself. “I wanted to be pretty like Catwoman” Wrong again! “Pretty” and “objectified” are not the same thing. I can want to feel pretty FOR MYSELF. I can look at a woman and think she’s pretty without objectifying her. The problem comes when a woman is turned into nothing but a sex object by a force outside herself. That is objectification. Creating a Catwoman that’s all boobs and Batman sex is objectification. That’s not about being “pretty.” That’s about someone else’s sexual fantasy. I never said I wanted to be pretty like Catwoman because all she was was a pretty face. I also wanted to be strong and smart like Catwoman. Which I explained in the post that again, you clearly did not understand. This is another place where your complete lack of understanding about what objectification is makes you come off as a real ass Coming from someone who grew up trying to look like He-Man, Conan, and Rambo I’m as guilty as you are about objectifying, but the image of a man that I was told as is kid gets me treated like some beastly monster now. This here? This is your issue. This has nothing to do with my post. If you’re treated like a “beastly monster,” I’m just going to go ahead and wager a guess that it has a lot more to do with you being a clueless, sexist asshat than looking like He-Man. Maybe I’m wrong there, but I seriously doubt it. Count your blessings there.Yay! I get to deal with sexism instead of having manly muscles! Blessing counted! (FYI, since you seem to be a little dim, I’ll just go ahead and state point blank that was sarcasm.) I’m tired of everyone expecting everything to fit their image all the time. Again, your issue, completely removed from the point of the post. Did you run out of devil-advocating bullshit around this point, so you decided to fill up your allotted comment section rant time with a completely off-topic tirade? I guess Internet Troll 101 is a class you’d pass a lot easier than Gender Studies. I’m tired of women wanting me to be “Metrosexual” when we’re in the shopping mall then wanting me to be Chuck Norris if we get mugged in the parking lot. As a woman, I’m tired of men who have a whole passel of issues I have no control over telling me it’s my fault that their masculinity is constantly threatened. I’m tired of men telling me he knows what I want better than I do. I’m tired of being told sexism is really my problem and I should learn to live with it and move on. And I’m damn tired of pissed off, frustrated men who don’t ‘t know the first thing about what it’s like to deal with sexism first hand coming onto my blog and tell me how me and my girl parts should feel about it. So yeah, I cursed you out. Because seriously, dude, fuck you and your fucking “women don’t know what they want from men” bullshit. THIS right here is a disgusting, insulting, sexist comment that would piss off most of the women of the world. And it’s why you don’t get my respect. I would’ve given it to you had you treated me like a person. Hell, it’s my default setting for strangers. But you lose the privilege when you do what’s the internet equivalent of coming up to a complete stranger and unloading your sexist personal issues on her. This, this right here, this is a problem. Go to therapy. Don’t rant on my blog. Nothing is perfectly what we want all the time. Nope, it sure isn’t. But hey, I’m not the one bitching about how women don’t know what they want from me, so maybe you need to tell yourself this. Also, that therapy suggestion. Really. Society needs to accept the good with the bad, because your idea of bad is not everyone’s idea of bad. Sexism is universally bad. If you don’t agree this makes you a -shocker!- sexist. My idea of “bad” here is women being treated like sex objects instead of people. I know that isn’t everyone’s idea of bad. But it should be because it’s WRONG. Society does not need to accept sexism, which is the “bad” I pointed out here. Should we also accept racism? Homophobia? What about child molesters? They’re bad. So society should accept them, right? I realize that’s taking your argument pretty far, but it’s only to show the inherent ridiculousness in it. Society needs to evolve and change for the better. Accepting the “bad” only stagnates progress. Women have been fighting for equal treatment for a long time, and while we’ve come a long way, the fight isn’t over. I’m not really one to use the phrase “male privilege” a lot, but you should look that up, too, because if your attitude on sexism is I should just learn to realize it exists and live with it, then you’re sitting in a big ol’ pool of male privilege and it’s time for you to wade out, look around, and learn that change for the better is good. I respect your right to not like what you see. Wow. A man respects my right to be offended by sexism. Well, that makes it okay now ladies! We can all breathe a big, collective sigh of relief from under our corsets now that a man has said we have that right! Newsflash — I don’t need you to tell me I have the right to be offended by female objectification. I know. This sort of shit, especially given everything else you’ve said here, is patronizing. Stop it. From your description of the Catwoman issue I doubt I would follow it either, but I don’t expect DC to change because of it. I don’t expect DC to do anything, honestly. But that doesn’t mean I can exercise my right to express my dissatisfaction with a problematic portrayal of women and outline my reasons for finding this portrayal problematic. ON MY OWN BLOG. Just because we live in an age when everyone has a voice doesn’t mean everyone else has to listen. But it also doesn’t mean that everyone has to shut up. This is MY blog. My little spot on the Internet to make my voice heard. And I’m not going to be told to shut up by some jackass who can’t even be bothered to learn about the issues he’s trying to lecture me on. No one is entitled to anything, and life is not fair. And yet, you’re apparently entitled to come here and lecture me on my blog. Awesome. (That use of “awesome” there was sarcasm again.)

All this being said I appreciate your love of comic books and would love to disguss them further. You’re stupid and sexist, so no. You appreciating me loving comics (seriously, could you be more patronizing?) does not entitle you to get to speak to me. Go back to the corner.

One last question for you: Can you tell me exactly why you have every right to tell me what you think of my post and I need to just learn to deal with DC? Why in the world do you have more of a right to voice your opinion than I do.

Oh, that’s right. You’re a man. And I’m a little girl who needs to shut up. Well, I guess you put me in my place, good sir! (NOTE: Sarcasm.)

In the future, if you’d like an intelligent debate, show up with some intelligence. Otherwise, don’t be surprised when someone tells you the cold, hard truth that you’re a total asshole.

(And just for the record, liking My Little Pony doesn’t make you a “victim.” It makes you a person with really bad taste in TV. Sorry to break it to you.)



“What you failed to realize is that ‘You can’t please everyone all the time’. You are not the target audience and no amount of money you spend will change that. Loosing one, or even all, fringe customers does not matter as long as they hit the main source of revenue. That being said, if you are the true mark they should be aiming for and they miss, then they’ll go away and make room for better works.”

Your reasoning is fatally flawed. When you say, “You are not the target audience and no amount of money you spend will change that.”, you’re implying not only that the target demographic is male, but that it’s almost laughable that anyone might consider otherwise. Which raises a simple question: why? Last time I checked, comics are gender neutral. They aren’t like “Playboy” or “Maxim”, which REALLY ARE tailored to a specific audience. They shouldn’t cater to any one group. They should cater to everyone and be as broadly inclusive as possible, especially since they’re part of a dying industry that desperately needs new readers to sustain them.

While he originally wrote this response on the matter of same sex romance in video games, BioWare’s David Geider summarized it best:

“[...] The majority has no inherent ‘right’ to get more options than anyone else.

[...] You can write it off as “political correctness” if you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority. They’re so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don’t see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what’s everyone’s fuss all about? That’s the way it should be, and everyone else should be used to not getting what they want.

[...] The very best we can do is give everyone a little bit of choice, and that’s what we tried here.

And the person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that’s my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.”



Hank Cartwright says:

I never implied that the target demographic was male. I implied that the target demographic wanted exactly what was printed. Be it male or female. You assume that only males want more errotic comics. A perfect example of sexism. You’re also putting all comics into one single catagory. Comics are not all gender neutral. Some may be, but not all. Saying they aren’t like “Playboy” or “Maxim” is what you want all comics to be. All I’m saying is that the creators have every right to try to compete with “Playboy” and “Maxim” if they choose to do so. If anyone doesn’t like it no one is holding a gun to their head forcing them to buy the product. There are many comics to choose from. My arguement is not about the majority having more rights, it’s about the creator to create whatever he or she wants for whoever’s money they want to take.



“I implied that the target demographic wanted exactly what was printed. Be it male or female.”

Somehow, I REALLY doubt that women are clamoring for more of this perversion of Starfire in their comics.

“You assume that only males want more errotic comics. A perfect example of sexism.”

Nope, but women prefer substance with their porn, i.e. they enjoy the fantasy and backstory instead of just seeing a bunch of nudity and two people screwing each others’ brains out. Also, overuse of sexual imagery doesn’t exclude good character development. I introduced a female friend of mine who’s new to comics to “Empowered” – which is filled with nudity, bondage, and whatnot – and she loved it because the characters are rounded, developed, fun, and have real heart. The new Starfire is flat and one-dimensional.

And don’t pull the sexism card with me, dude. I’m male. :P

“All I’m saying is that the creators have every right to try to compete with ‘Playboy’ and ‘Maxim’ if they choose to do so. If anyone doesn’t like it no one is holding a gun to their head forcing them to buy the product. There are many comics to choose from. My arguement is not about the majority having more rights, it’s about the creator to create whatever he or she wants for whoever’s money they want to take.”

Of course they have that right. But having that right doesn’t make them magically exempt from criticism and people have a right to call them out on it.

Also, you’re acting as if comic book publishers these days have an endless supply of new readers from which they could freely pick and choose. They don’t. It’s an ever-shrinking market for a genre that’s slowly dying. It makes no business sense to anger your existing loyal fanbase and risk alienating women by putting out a product that could be considered objectifying or sexist.



Male Fan says:

To be honest i cant say i entirely agree with you especially on the You must have a problem with sexually liberated women. and I understand why women get upset, but this is always going to be in comics, and women have to understand that, too parts but this was a great post and i enjoyed it i just think if you looking for objectification that you lean to much towards one side and i think you should compare to the things like Wonder Womans new outfit and Supergirls new shorts that DC did to try and get new female readers. I think their is stark contrast in wonder Woman outfit before http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100331035539/marvel_dc/images/7/7e/Wonder_Woman_0023.jpg and after http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111021011309/marvel_dc/images/c/c5/Wonder_Woman_0302.jpg truthfully im not a fan of the new outfit or the adition of the shorts to Supergirls outfit for the simple fact that im a traditonalist.



I wasn’t complaining about costumes, really. I actually said I was okay with a lot of the costumes, and I’ve never really had a huge problem with most of the “traditional” ones. I was more upset about specific scenes, where the dialogue was just as problematic as the clothes. None of those scenes had anyone’s “traditional” costumes either. I think from this you missed a lot of the point of my post, and what I was actually upset about. I wasn’t looking for objectification. Honestly, if I wanted to find objectification, I could complain about a lot more comics. These instances, however, were egregious, and I was far from the only woman who thought so.

It’s not about costumes. It’s not trying to please one fanbase over the other. It’s about learning that portraying women as sex objects is offensive, and it’s time for comics to move past that sort of thinking. “Traditional” or not.



Dear Ms. Snarky,

Thank you for getting the point, and for making the point in eloquent and sensible ways. I’ve been in and out of comics for these exact reasons, although I now feel much more OK about being ‘into’ comics when I know that I’m not the only one who feels that way and that there is intelligent discussion about it on places like this. I agree with you that it is hard to feel respected as a person when women are objectified as ‘less than a real character’ in comic books. And that just because it’s entertaining doesn’t mean that it should have lower standards about propagating oppressive and harmful views. Thanks for a brilliant post.



Ashley says:

This is an amazing review and poignant argument.
I was hoping I could use you as a source for a paper I am writing to submit to Dartmouth for an art history symposium. Would that be alright?



Morgan says:

As a male who wishes female characters in comics were stronger and less sexuality, I’m 100% behind your words. You are very well spoken and it’s too bad that so many publishers and artists continue this awful trend. Fight the good fight.
One fan to another.



[...] A Response From A Female Comic Book Fan [...]



Katie says:

I ADORE you for posting this. It was so well-written, and I can really connect with what you’re trying to say. Thank you so much.

If you are ever interested in picking up the nuDC, try Birds of Prey or Batgirl. The latter has a few uncomfortable (read: crotchshots) as she’s swinging by the grappling hook, but even while I’m in the same boat, they’ve entertained me and made me felt much more comfortable than Red Hood and Catwoman, etc.
I think that the major problem is that these tend to be sequestered into Boy Comics and Girl Comics, as you were saying.



Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

et cetera
Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 65 other followers

%d bloggers like this: